Mudfly Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 I don't remember Dan Marino, Jim Kelly or Brett Favre looking like they were born to take tests with #2 pencils but they sure could play some Hall of Fame QB. Right....they are the exceptions when it comes to the wonderlik....and there are exceptions to every rule....thats why people pull out Tom Brady to prove you can get a HOFer in the 6th......but it isnt the rule(or trend), is it? Personally, I prefer a QB who is smarter than his opponent and has the ability to outsmart the D..... Every player has a brain.....and a body.....and a talent quotient.... The very very best have all 3......and it goes down from there.....so if you prefer a guy with talent and no brains to a guy with talent and an exceptional mind....I cant help you.... I seem to remember a guy we all loved who did it with limited skills and a lot of brains.....or course, there are guys like Jeff George or Jamrcus Russell who had all the talent and great measureables, but no brains.....So, yeah, we can all pick out an example to suit our preferences.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 Right....they are the exceptions when it comes to the wonderlik....and there are exceptions to every rule.... Personally, I prefer a QB who is smarter than his opponent and has the ability to outsmart the D..... Every player has a brain.....and a body.....and a talent quotient.... The very very best have all 3......and it goes down from there.....so if you prefer a guy with talent and no brains to a guy with talent and an exceptional mind....I cant help you.... Agreed. My take is a very dumb jock like Jim Kelly can still be a very smart QB. When I lived in Rochester NY he did commentated a preseason game the Bills were in. He joked that he couldn't remember his Wunderlic score but he thought he got like a 5 on the thing. Then he said, he loved the game enough to be prepared enough to pull off calling his own plays in the no huddle offense they rode to 4 consecutive Superbowls. A competitive fire like that or a Brett Favre or a Dan Marino (whom I'm told struggled in the Wunderlic) can still lead to a very effective decision maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 Biggest bust will be Watson. Our targeted guy if we draft instead of trade is Mahomes if he's there at 12 and if not Kizer at 33. Biggest dark horses and guys I'd like to see us use a 6th or later Evans and Sloter. I'd love to grab one of them even if we do draft or trade for someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 According to this Workout Metrics Graph, the light bulb looks out to me. :lol: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/mitch-trubisky/ Watching that highlight package makes me pray to the football Gods harder than ever that we don't call his name - with any pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam222 Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 Biggest bust will be Watson. Our targeted guy if we draft instead of trade is Kizer. Biggest desk horses and guys I'd like to see us use a 6th or later Evans an Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 Agreed. My take is a very dumb jock like Jim Kelly can still be a very smart QB. When I lived in Rochester NY he did commentated a preseason game the Bills were in. He joked that he couldn't remember his Wunderlic score but he thought he got like a 5 on the thing. Then he said, he loved the game enough to be prepared enough to pull off calling his own plays in the no huddle offense they rode to 4 consecutive Superbowls. A competitive fire like that or a Brett Favre or a Dan Marino (whom I'm told struggled in the Wunderlic) can still lead to a very effective decision maker. Right.....and Id say Favre....Marino.....Kelly had about a million times the visible talent than one Mr. Trubisky.... Id also add.....that all 3 of those guys were great great QB's....no argument there....but the 3 have only 1 SB victory combined ..and something like 6 losses.....so, could it be?....possibly?....that the smarter QB's took them to school?.....or that they didnt have that little extra(smarts) that allowed them to beat the other team?.....I dont know the answer, but it is a question worth asking..... So...by questioning my calling Trubs a dummy.....are you saying Trubs is the next Favre/Marino/Kelly? Cause...my point centers around the fact that his physical skills seem average....his limited game tape is average....and his mind seems below average....so where does the "top prospect" stuff come from?.....and how does one, who doesnt appear to have any of those top QB traits get drafted as the #1 prospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 Watching that highlight package makes me pray to the football Gods harder than ever that we don't call his name - with any pick. notice his front leg? at about 4;14 he finally quits falling off his throws & drives a ball in with front leg. It's a bad habit watching him for a couple years now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyceRolls Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 LOL, I can play football too, not very well at my advanced age. But your defense of Kizer is duly noted. Hmmm... ya know who's the same size with a cannon arm, noted for making bad decisions? I give you Brandon Wee-done. He also carries the ND curse on his head. Unless a guy from that school is all world (and Kizer isn't) I'm taking him off my draft board. Now I have a low opinion of Kelly- but- Trubisky may have only played one year @ NC, but at least he didn't get benched. Deshone must have been playing stinko bad to pull off that feat. PS don't give me that "prototype" crap. You don't have to be 6'4" to be a great NFL qb. Like Brett Farve, Aaron Rodgers, or Drew Brees. Kizer has a lot of growing to do, but unlike Weeden he won't enter draft night as a 30 year old mongoloid. He is an intelligent 21 year old who has far greater athletic talent than Weeden and seems to have a good mental grasp on the game of football. I never understood how the college a prospect went to has anything to do with his potential. Some bad QBs came out of Notre Dame, but so did Joe Montana. Transversely, were you someone who was begging for Chad Henne because he went to the same school as Tom Brady? Trubisky has a great release, good accuracy and mobility, but he also made a lot of bad decisions (didn't a referee have a forced fumble on trubs)? The difference is that Trubisky is a mouth breather. Mitch has a lot of desirable traits, but I'm not sure I want to put the future of my franchise in the hands of skinny gronk. Your third point is absolutely correct, a guy doesn't have to be 6'4" to be a successful NFL QB, but it seems like I've watched a decade of the browns using at least 3 QBs a year. Kizer' size is just an added bonus. Ultimately, it comes down to my philosophy with this draft class. I don't want any 1st rd QB this year. Trubs and Watson have too many question marks and Mahomes is a riddle wrapped in an enigma. It's looking more and more like Kizer will be available in the mid rounds and while I used to think 33 was a good place to draft a QB, I'm not so sure anymore. There will undoubtedly be 1st round talent available there, so I'm thinking #52 should be the earliest a QB is selected. Of the guys most likely available at 52 or later, I'll take Kizer or Dobbs over the rest, just how I feel about this class. I say all that to say this, wtf do I know? I'm probably going to be hella wrong about this stuff. I spend my days cleaning Draft Beer systems and drawing goofy shit, if the Browns feel *THE GUY* is available, they better pounce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 I say all that to say this, wtf do I know? I'm probably going to be hella wrong about this stuff. I spend my days cleaning Draft Beer systems and drawing goofy shit, if the Browns feel *THE GUY* is available, they better pounce. This is my perspective....100% Dont see the guy.....and dont want us to draft one in the top 3 rounds..... But if the brain trust see's the guy....they shouldnt get cute and hope he falls....just grab him and live or die with the decision... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 23, 2017 Report Share Posted April 23, 2017 Wunderlick? OK I guess, but not definitive. Why not just look at what they studied and how well they did?" No rocket scientists (yet), but Economics vs Phys Ed vs "undeclared"??? And the latter was a senior at the time? http://sportschatter.com/sports-talk/slideshow/college-major-every-quarterback-nfl/ Trubisky may have only played one year @ NC, but at least he didn't get benched. Ummmmm... kinda like closing the barn doors after the horses have all run out... Best: Chad Kelly Attaboy... I was getting lonely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Wunderlick? OK I guess, but not definitive. Nothing is definitive....hence we have many many things we measure to draw our conclusions....including intelligence and decision making....and the Wonderlic is not just a basic IQ test....is forces you to make quick decisions under pressure....and guess what....there is a correlation between successful NFL QB's and intelligence and decision making under pressure.....in fact, it's a primary requirement.... Here are a few wonderlic factoids for you.... First....50 is a perfect score....so, in essence, a 20 would be 40%....a 30 would be 60%....etc Right now....of the 32 starting QB's in the league....31 of them scored 20 or higher.....31 out of 32.....(thats a slam dunk for scoring higher than 20, wouldnt you say??? But the average score for a WR is 17.....a RB is 16....CB is 18....LB is 19.....and that is the AVERAGE....while there is only ONE QB below 20....doesnt that say it all right there?..... Who is below 20?....Tyrod Taylor @ 15....the only weird one I see is Derek Carr, who is the next lowest at 20.....the exception But the really good ones?.....for the most part(with the prerequisite exception or 2)....are all 30 plus...... Guys like Brady, Ryan, Rodgers, Stafford, Luck, Smith, Rivers, Manning, etc.....are all 30's and higher.... So.....I have no clue what Trubs(or any of the prospects, ftm) score was....but if he got a 15, then Im thinking the odds are against him being successful....and listening to him talk, Im thinking he is at tremendous risk of having a super low score.... On a side note....I mentioned how poorly Corey Colemen came off this week in his interview, so decided to see where he was.....no surprises.....he has one of the lowest scores ever at 10....probably doesnt matter, but certainly is confirmation of what I sensed, when I listened to him speak.....(and I have the same sense with Trubs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 I've taken online Wunderlick and Wunderlickish tests. It can be prepared for just as SATs or PEs can be... thru practice and a systematic approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 I've taken online Wunderlick and Wunderlickish tests. It can be prepared for just as SATs or PEs can be... thru practice and a systematic approach. Yep....and most of these guys take practice tests and prepare for the big one....which is why a 10-15 is something to worry about.... So.....its like the guy who fails the piss test at the combine....is it a bigger problem that he smokes weed or that he's too dumb and uncommitted to show up clean?..... Same with this test right?.....The smart ones come prepared and pass....the dumb ones dont.... Tour.....what is your view on 31 outta 32 starting QB's being over 20?.....while most other positions average well below(except OT, of course)......does that not ring your bell even a little?.....you? a guy who likes 3 cone tests and long jump #'s....cmon, you gotta know it matters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Heres another way to look at it.... All things being equal.....same height weight speed and ability....except one prospect is dumb like a rock and the other is intelligent...who would you pick and why?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Heres another way to look at it.... All things being equal.....same height weight speed and ability....except one prospect is dumb like a rock and the other is intelligent...who would you pick and why?.... QBs and OL, the smarter one. Everyone else, the dumber. They will play with more abandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Yeah...Im more worried about QB's than the others.....but looking at the lists, I still think the best of the best(at most positions) are usually higher intellect guys....not always.....but usually.... Though, Ill say there are many exceptions.....so this is just another box you'd like to check.....but sometimes wont.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 well, I know a guy, who knows a guy, who emailed Mary Kay one time, and he says the Browns are trading their #33 pick to the Packers for Aaron Rodgers. You know it's going to happen, because He's 33, and they will have drafted Trubisky or Watson with their first round pick. But don't tell anybody, it's a super duper secret scoop from the guy. the first guy, not the second guy. Although, I wouldn't put it past Mary Kay to read this and tweet it or something...... 3.66 days before the draft. dammit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Best: PETERMAN OR KELLY Most overrated: TRUBS,WATSON.KIZER. Worst: WEBB A Big Kessler Fan Now^^2 Wildcards--MaHolmes or Dobbs--could be DAK or pure Crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Wonderlic scores Beathard 26 Dobbs 29 Kaaya 34 Kizer 28 Knight 30 Mahomes 24 Peterman 33 Tribusky 25 Watson 20 Webb 25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Wonderlic scores Beathard 26 Dobbs 29 Kaaya 34 Kizer 28 Knight 30 Mahomes 24 Peterman 33 Tribusky 25 Watson 20 Webb 25 Manziel 32 FIFY-bring him back from "temporary retirement". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Haha I saw a draft guy on twitter make a comment that made sense to me, high scores don't make you pick anybody but a really low one and you do take notice and want to know why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 What's the time frame here? Are we talking about which QB will EVENTUALLY be the best, or who will be the most functional right away? I think the question asks which one will BE the best, so let's give it a three year window. I don't see any of the rookies QB's "blowing up" similar to a Dak Prescott. I know that's the dream of every GM and head coach, but it's a rarity in the NFL. Dak went to virtually the best possible situation, and he seized control in the preseason and never let go. It was simply awesome to watch. That being said, I agree with many of the analysts who say that Trubisky can be the most efficient QB the earliest. Even though he's only started 13 games or so, he's obviously a quick study and also has the physical skills needed to make enough plays to have what I think will be a successful NFL season. I don't expect greatness, but maybe something similar to what Carson Wentz did...if Trubisky goes to a team with SOME talent. I don't see Watson, Kizer, Mahomes, or anyone else having a noteworthy impact as a rookie. Now, who will be the best QB after three years, and who will end up having the best career? That's a tough one for me because there are so many variables. How long will each guy get to sit and learn? How much talent will each guy have to work with? What kind of offensive system will they be playing in? Mahomes has the best "arm talent" by far, but that doesn't always translate to the best results. Jamarcus Russell comes to mind, but I also understand he wasn't a hard worker either. From what I understand, each of these young QB's has a dynamite work ethic, so that doesn't seem to be an issue. I've read the reports on Watson, and I understand that his throwing velocity was VERY subpar, but I wouldn't underestimate that guy. What he did in college was nothing short of amazing, and I wouldn't put it past Watson to dive into the NFL game and WILL himself to greatness. I don't like Kizer, and I never have. I've read multiple times that he doesn't process information quickly, and he holds onto the ball too long. That's the kiss of death IMO, and even though he looks like he was built at a QB factory, I have serious doubts with his ability to play in this league. I think Trubisky will be "good to very good", but I don't think he'll ever be "great". Thing is...I'd settle for "good to very good" in a skinny second. The wildcard in my eyes is a guy named Chad Kelly. I know there are multiple reports that he's an asshole, and I know he's had some off the field issues, but something tells me Chad Kelly has a chance to start in the NFL and be a very good prospect. I think a team will get him later in the draft and perhaps have a steal on their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren15 Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Predictions Trubisky ... Jets at 6 Watson ... Texans at 25 Mahomes ... Chiefs at 27 Kizer ... 49rs at 34 Webb - Browns at 52 Dobbs - Saints at 76 Peterman - Steelers at 135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Tribusky Bills @ 10 Mahomes Cards @ 13 Kizer Chiefs @ 27 Watson Jaguars @ 35 Webb Jets @ 39 Dobbs Browns @ 65 Peterman Bears @ 67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poplarbluffman Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 please wonderlic.. lot of HOF qb's had low wonderlic scores BUT does show if you can learn a playbook your 1st year...real test is personality and vision very few of these kidsacan a pass to a te in the red zone in the backof the field...even fewer have the touch to make that pass and fewer still have the guts to try IMO my world Peterman, Watson and Mahomes comes closest in a bad draft year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Wonderlic scores Beathard 26 Dobbs 29 Kaaya 34 Kizer 28 Knight 30 Mahomes 24 Peterman 33 Tribusky 25 Watson 20 Webb 25 Watson having a Wonderlich of 20....and an arm speed of only 49 are two big demerits on him. I understand that people say he has leadership and confidence...but is that enough? For those reasons, I will give him the "most likely bust" label. (plus...I don't think that any QB that is drafted below round 2 should ever be considered a "bust"...as QBs drafted that low come in with expectations of being a backup at best). Best will be Trubisky. Does he have a lot to learn? Absolutely. But, I assume this is a long term...crockpot question, not a microwave...immediate gratification question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 That 49mph has, I believe, since been revised even lower to 45mph because of the gun used. Far far too low a speed to be considered draftable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Tour.....what is your view on 31 outta 32 starting QB's being over 20?.....while most other positions average well below(except OT, of course)......does that not ring your bell even a little?.....you? a guy who likes 3 cone tests and long jump #'s....cmon, you gotta know it matters... Not meaning to completely dismiss the test, Mud. Yes, I think a low score is problematic. It potentially signals a general lack of intelligence, but more likely either a lack of prep or processing speed. I've met a lot of very desk-smart people in my engineering life who couldn't think on their feet. If the Wunderlick does nothing else, it puts a premium on speed of thought... a key factor in any QB's success. While prep can enhance a score, it can't manufacture one. So the question becomes: Is there a minimum acceptable score, and if so, what is it? My guess is that there is a score at which the probability of success drops off dramatically. Twenty seems as good of a number as any, especially if it's statistically supported by NFL performance and adjusted for test-to-test variation (just as SATs are). Then the question becomes: Once that minimum is exceeded, does higher mean better or more likely to succeed? I doubt that, if for no other reason than that anecdotally Fitzgerald exists... but again, stats have to determine whether or not the probability of success flat-lines above some score. No matter the measure... 40-time, Vert leap, 3-cone, pass velocity or Wunderlick... I don't see absolutes; I don't see performance "guarantees". But sure there can be concerns raised as well as positive takes reinforced. OR... as LB succinctly put it... I saw a draft guy on twitter make a comment that made sense to me, high scores don't make you pick anybody but a really low one and you do take notice and want to know why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Wonderlic scores: Beathard 26 - Dobbs 29 - Kaaya 34 - Kizer 28 - Knight 30 - Mahomes 24 - Peterman 33 - Tribusky 25 - Watson 20 - Webb 25 Talk about confirmation bias... I just watched the Gruden episodes for Peterman, Kaaya and Dobbs late last nite... in that order. Peterman's maturity impressed, but it was Kaaya that blew me away. Both bested my previous blew-me-away-Gruden-Camp-leader-in-the-clubhouse, Kizer. Dobbs? Could not help but think "goofy geek" for most of his classroom time... and I don't see NFL players rallying to a goofy-geek. But there was one parting moment on-field, when he offered a life lesson to those who participated in his field session: "Football... we do it a lot. Some people get burned out. You don't get burned out because of what you do; you get burned out because you forget why you do it. So don't forget your purpose." Not just what he said, but the way he said it without a hint of "goofy". The thought also struck me that there are elements in nearly every Gruden segment that are identical, e.g., "What are you listening to?", "R.C.E.", etc., but this is the first time I remember seeing Gruden ask the prospect for any "words of wisdom" at the tail-end huddle-up. I doubt it was the first time he asked. More likely it's the first time the reply was broadcast worthy. That feels like it should be worth something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted April 24, 2017 Report Share Posted April 24, 2017 Wonderlic scores Beathard 26 Dobbs 29 Kaaya 34 Kizer 28 Knight 30 Mahomes 24 Peterman 33 Tribusky 25 Watson 20 Webb 25 If those are accurate London, Trubs passes the smartness test. MHO the way a guy talks has little correlation with his intelligence. PS, not surprised Dobbs did well with a college major of Aerospace Engineering. So yeah Tour, we do have a Rocket Scientist in this draft class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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