The Gipper Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Someone mentioned on TV that the Bengals have a policy of drafting people from only the Big Schools....Power5 conference schools....and that is what has lead to much of their success in acquiring talent. I don't know if that is it. Certainly in the Browns case they have drafted plenty of players from the P5 conferences that have turned bust. So it can't be that simple. So, what I did was look at all the Browns draft choices from 2006 and beyond to see how many came from Non P5 conferences. Following is the list, but note, in this time frame the Browns have made 80 draft picks, 62 of which were players from the P5 programs. Here are the 18 non P5 players taken: Round..........Player........School 2...Joel Bitonio....Nevada 3...Terrence West...Towson St. 4...Pierre Desir....Lindenwood 3...Leon McFadden...San Diego St. 7...Armonty Bryant...E. Central Oklahoma 7...Garrett Gilkey...Chadron St. 4...James Michael Johnson...Nevada 6...Billy Winn...Boise St. 5...Buster Skrine...Tenn.-Chattanooga 6...Charlton Mitchell...South Florida 2...David Veikune...Hawaii 6...Don Carey....Norfolk St. 6...Coye Francies...San Jose St. 4...Beau Bell...UNLV 7...Alex Hall...St. Augustines 2...Eric Wright...UNLV 5...Brandon McDonald...Memphis 6...Melia Purcell....Hawaii Note: ALL 12 of the 2015 picks of the Browns came from schools in the P5 conferences. So, as I see it, in 10 years of drafting, they took 8 players in the 4th round or higher from Non P5 schools. Some came out good: Bitonio, Wright. Some sucked swamp water: Veikune, McFadden Anything 5th round or below should be considered a crapshoot, big school or not. And we had some decent picks there: Skrine, Winn, A. Bryant. So, what should the policy be? All P5? Bad mistakes can be made there as well....hello TR....Hello Vince Mayle.....hello Greg Little.....hello Montario Hardesty....hello Brian Robiskie...hello Brady Quinn and Brandon Weeden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 So, what should the policy be? All P5? Bad mistakes can be made there as well.... I'd say there shouldn't be a "policy" on where they come from....just draft whoever you feel is the best player.....period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I'd say there shouldn't be a "policy" on where they come from....just draft whoever you feel is the best player.....period. Most scouts and GM's will be using the strength of opposition heavily in their evaluations though I would think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I'd say there shouldn't be a "policy" on where they come from....just draft whoever you feel is the best player.....period. Yep. No need to favour one conference over another, though it's of course a factor when comparing opponent talent level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Most scouts and GM's will be using the strength of opposition heavily in their evaluations though I would think? To a degree, but there are a lot of things that you can transfer across, particularly in the measurables. Speed, agility - how quickly can a DB change direction, how big of a jam on the line can they get, how quickly can they transition from backpedal to sprinting forwards. Other things as well might be harder, but can still be evaluated. Like, how good is a pass rushers swim move - you can have a 10/10 technique and get by D2 linemen, or you can have 6/10 technique and get by D2 linemen. You can succeed against weaker opponents by just being faster and stronger, but you can also evaluate when a RB shows patience waiting for the play to develop, because his OL is probably comparable in talent to the opposition DL; just because you're terrance west, doesn't mean your OL is going to all of a sudden be also dominant at that level. Then there's QB play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Most scouts and GM's will be using the strength of opposition heavily in their evaluations though I would think? Of course, but Ill just defer to Chris's answer cause it covers it well......talent is talent, no matter what the competition.....and its up to the Pro's to sort that out..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingfooldoug Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 we've sure things go bust and sure busts make it(udfa). you could probably number your top 6 choices and roll a die and have the same chance of getting a hit as using all the other systems. ouija board anyone?...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Of course, but Ill just defer to Chris's answer cause it covers it well......talent is talent, no matter what the competition.....and its up to the Pro's to sort that out..... To a degree, but there are a lot of things that you can transfer across, particularly in the measurables. Speed, agility - how quickly can a DB change direction, how big of a jam on the line can they get, how quickly can they transition from backpedal to sprinting forwards. Other things as well might be harder, but can still be evaluated. Like, how good is a pass rushers swim move - you can have a 10/10 technique and get by D2 linemen, or you can have 6/10 technique and get by D2 linemen. You can succeed against weaker opponents by just being faster and stronger, but you can also evaluate when a RB shows patience waiting for the play to develop, because his OL is probably comparable in talent to the opposition DL; just because you're terrance west, doesn't mean your OL is going to all of a sudden be also dominant at that level. Then there's QB play... Cheers that all makes sense. Scouting college players for a NFL team must be one of the great jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I kind of agree with it though. Yeah you might find some amazing wkt warriors in smaller schools, but you never see film of them against elite opposition. If there is film of some kid from a smaller school playing against the big boys and he excels, ok now you've got something. I personally would never use a high draft pick on someone that I don't see film of in college playing against the upper echelon of talent. Won't do it. I'll use the later rounds for the kids from smaller schools that I feel I may be able to develop., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I kind of agree with it though. Yeah you might find some amazing wkt warriors in smaller schools, but you never see film of them against elite opposition. If there is film of some kid from a smaller school playing against the big boys and he excels, ok now you've got something. I personally would never use a high draft pick on someone that I don't see film of in college playing against the upper echelon of talent. Won't do it. I'll use the later rounds for the kids from smaller schools that I feel I may be able to develop., I would agree with that, Bitonio for instance had some good games versus some of the highly rated pass rushers I believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 ......and its up to the Pro's to sort that out..... I thought we was the pros! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Most scouts and GM's will be using the strength of opposition heavily in their evaluations though I would think? Khalil Mack would think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Khalil Mack would think otherwise. Exactly.....he is the perfect example of a small school player who a lot of people discounted only because of where he played... BUT....he did have a MONSTER game against Ohio State and I remember a lot of folks saying thats all they needed to trust his talent....so, while some said it was just one game....others said WOW, he's up to the task.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The bar for a kid should be higher if he's not from a P5 school. It's that simple. I'm not saying don't ever take them, but that's my policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin J Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Id go one further, and in the top 4 rounds only draft from schools who are winning big recently. Id stick primarily to OSU, MSU, ALA, AUB, GA, FSU, MISS, WIS, OKL, CLEM and ORE. These players will typically be top recruits from high school who showed they can play on a big stage. I want guys in the later rounds who have top notch athleticism and may have dropped for off the field reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Exactly.....he is the perfect example of a small school player who a lot of people discounted only because of where he played... BUT....he did have a MONSTER game against Ohio State and I remember a lot of folks saying thats all they needed to trust his talent....so, while some said it was just one game....others said WOW, he's up to the task.... That game put him on the map. If not for that game he would have been at best a late rounder most likely high 2nd round. He "abused" the OH St offensive line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeputyDawg Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 That's great research Gipper! Thanks for that. Gut reaction from me is that your HC knows the type of player he thinks the team is missing and the type of player he wants on the team- physique, mentality, agility etc. For example Erving, Johnson and Orchard I'm not sure were many pundits choices for the Browns when they were picked- especially Erving. We had the chance for Bud Dupree who I was hoping we would pick as I thought we needed a pass rusher. Anyway its a great game, the best in the world! Can you help explain what gftChris means by a 10/10 technique and a 6/10 technique please? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 That's great research Gipper! Thanks for that. Gut reaction from me is that your HC knows the type of player he thinks the team is missing and the type of player he wants on the team- physique, mentality, agility etc. For example Erving, Johnson and Orchard I'm not sure were many pundits choices for the Browns when they were picked- especially Erving. We had the chance for Bud Dupree who I was hoping we would pick as I thought we needed a pass rusher. Anyway its a great game, the best in the world! Can you help explain what gftChris means by a 10/10 technique and a 6/10 technique please? Thanks. Just a grade out of 10. You could be JJ watt and dominate D2 OL or you could be Paul Kruger and do the same. It's in the technique that you see how the player will translate to the pros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeputyDawg Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Cheers mate! And sorry to be a pain, but is D2 defensive secondary then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I kind of agree with it though. Yeah you might find some amazing wkt warriors in smaller schools, but you never see film of them against elite opposition. If there is film of some kid from a smaller school playing against the big boys and he excels, ok now you've got something. I personally would never use a high draft pick on someone that I don't see film of in college playing against the upper echelon of talent. Won't do it. I'll use the later rounds for the kids from smaller schools that I feel I may be able to develop., I know that some of these guys from smaller schools get invites to play in the Senior Bowl......which is run by NFL coaches and scouts. So a number of them that get drafted highly are because they have displayed their wares against the best of the big school players and have held their own....in practice and in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Exactly.....he is the perfect example of a small school player who a lot of people discounted only because of where he played... BUT....he did have a MONSTER game against Ohio State and I remember a lot of folks saying thats all they needed to trust his talent....so, while some said it was just one game....others said WOW, he's up to the task.... And the Browns should have taken him instead of trading down for Gilbert.....in hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Cheers mate! And sorry to be a pain, but is D2 defensive secondary then?Division two college school. British by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Id go one further, and in the top 4 rounds only draft from schools who are winning big recently. Id stick primarily to OSU, MSU, ALA, AUB, GA, FSU, MISS, WIS, OKL, CLEM and ORE. These players will typically be top recruits from high school who showed they can play on a big stage. I want guys in the later rounds who have top notch athleticism and may have dropped for off the field reasons. Supposedly the Bengals philosophy is to take the players from the big schools because they have played in the spotlight.....in front of huge crowds and on National TV and in pressure situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Supposedly the Bengals philosophy is to take the players from the big schools because they have played in the spotlight.....in front of huge crowds and on National TV and in pressure situations. Bengals of course are famed for really thriving under he pressure of big prime time games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Bengals of course are famed for really thriving under he pressure of big prime time games. Great Comeback! And highly apt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeputyDawg Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 London now Essex gftChris. And yes, those Bungals are on that slide downwards. You can just see it now- gifting the Division to the Stoolers by losing to the Cards, Broncos and Stoolers (and the Browns) and then flopping out in the Wild card round yet again. So much hope dashed every year in the same manner! I hope they don't do this should any little tiggers be reading this, primarily because I don't want the Stoolers to win the Division. Out of interest, what's the rivalry like between the Browns and Bengals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 London now Essex gftChris. And yes, those Bungals are on that slide downwards. You can just see it now- gifting the Division to the Stoolers by losing to the Cards, Broncos and Stoolers (and the Browns) and then flopping out in the Wild card round yet again. So much hope dashed every year in the same manner! I hope they don't do this should any little tiggers be reading this, primarily because I don't want the Stoolers to win the Division. Out of interest, what's the rivalry like between the Browns and Bengals? Depends on who you ask. Browns and Steeler fans have a bigger rivalry. Browns fan hate Ravens worse probably due to their method of origination. But if you asked Art Modell......he hated the Bengals most because of Paul Brown. He respected the Steelers, but did not hate them. He had good relations with the Rooneys. But he and Paul Brown basically hated each other. As for now, between the fans.....The Bengals are still the weak little sister in the state despite their recent success and the Browns failures. Others may have to testify, but if you ask Hoorta and others who live down that way, the Bengals probably have more fans in Kentucky than in Ohio. The line of demarcation between Browns and Bengals fans is somewhere around Dayton...which is probably 50/50. Columbus is probably somewhat of a FRAK town......whoever is winning they may go for, but in reality I think it is more 75-80% Brownstown if push comes to shove. If both are good, it is Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Exactly.....he is the perfect example of a small school player who a lot of people discounted only because of where he played... BUT....he did have a MONSTER game against Ohio State and I remember a lot of folks saying thats all they needed to trust his talent....so, while some said it was just one game....others said WOW, he's up to the task.... I always thought that Mack was just a big fish in a small pond. But yeah....the Ohio State game made me a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 London now Essex gftChris. And yes, those Bungals are on that slide downwards. You can just see it now- gifting the Division to the Stoolers by losing to the Cards, Broncos and Stoolers (and the Browns) and then flopping out in the Wild card round yet again. So much hope dashed every year in the same manner! I hope they don't do this should any little tiggers be reading this, primarily because I don't want the Stoolers to win the Division. Out of interest, what's the rivalry like between the Browns and Bengals? Another cockney, welcome aboard ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Another cockney, welcome aboard ! First things first, living in Essex you must be a Liverpool fan, or United? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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