browns52 Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I would argue that the GM "DID" bring in top ranked talent, but the coach refuses to even take it for a test drive.....and he clearly is playing players who arent playing well.....so, new job or not, if you are failing and you refuse to try something else, then maybe it IS the HC and not the talent.... Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others.... When THIS MANY skilled veterans suddenly become baffoons and you refuse to make ANY adjustments and stubbornly stay the course.....then can you really blame just the talent level???? And I can say "for me", that Ive defended Farmer and Pettine 100%....all the way.....completely.....and I do understand what it takes. Ive bought several "distressed" businesses and flipped em, which is my thing. So Ive been there and done that for 26 years now....for real! I can tell you that Ive certainly made HUGE mistakes, but I also listen to any skilled/long term employees for ideas....and make adjustment after adjustment till things are right. Forcing a square peg into the ole round hole has NEVER worked anywhere....and even though Im not an NFL coach, I can tell you thats whats happening here..... The one thing you dont have to be a Coach to see....is what I based this thread on.....obvious contradictions. Saying one thing and doing another. And holding very visible double standards within the team. Strong leadership doesnt waver, but it also has balls and can admit mistakes when they happen.... You cant say "were gonna play this guy cause we need to see what he can do".....then NOT play several others because you claim to already know what they can do......and claim to have transparency, then spew a bunch of crap that everyone knows is BS.... Yeah....he's in his second year and he's assembled a staff full of rookies(first mistake, right there). If he's to be successful, he HAS to look around at what successful coaches do and start doing it.....successful people surround themselves with successful people....and I dont see that happening.....I dont see adjustments....I dont even see him admitting there is a problem. He seems to think its just a few missed assignments.....and THAT is the troubling part.....and THAT is why Im playing armchair QB....Not because I think I know more than him about Coaching.... but because I know about leadership and being in charge of a turn around and its the same in business as it is in football.....and he doesnt look up to the task... Maybe for his "first" HC job, he shouldnt have taken the most challenging one in the league....and if he's gonna tackle it, then he needs to do what good leaders do and get some people in here that know what the fuck they are doing. And when they dont do it right, he needs to say that and make them adjust......simple shit really.....even if it IS coming from my armchair(or office)(same diff) yeah, someone that knows what they are talking about. yeah.... great post.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browns52 Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 You make lots of very valid points Mudfly as usual, and fairly put. There is just something I'm not comfortable about seeing Pettine get axed when you correctly point out all the top guys are rookies in this business. That to me is the key mistake, but it's been made and we live in the now. If Pettine's record next year continues along the same path as the last 15 games then he has to go. Miktoxic imo is right when he says these guys have got to learn and grow. It's a brutal job to be in and they don't get given long, but 1.5 years isn't long enough. Other factors I think should be considered are our schedule this year and the fact that the AFC North is a tough division. What I really liked about your argument was that it was built around inconsistencies, and there certainly do appear to be some glaring ones now you point them out, and let's hope he sorts that out because the clock is certainly ticking for Pettine. Haslam isn't known for patience even though he is on record for saying he won't fire Pettine or Farmer no matter what happens this year. I guess the key for me is that very few really successful teams have been built around the hiring and firing model and 5 HCs in 9 years goes a long way to explain to me why we are still are where we don't want to be. yeah well, all those head coaches we had were terrible. Not everyone is hc material. Do you see any of these former browns coaches since 99 hired by another organization because i don't. Oh wait a minute. The chiefs hired cronnell...How did that work out. Not a one coach we hired since 99 has been hc material and it is based on facts. Maybe the gm's had alot to do with it also because i don't see any former browns players going to the hall of fame either. However most of the teams in the nfl have a pretty good roster and i don't see any former cleveland browns hc's in the mix for a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I'm not sure what your point is with Holmgren...because it seems to be making mine? Holmgren was never our HC, we hired for a job in which he had absolutely zero experience. Being a good HC doesn't mean you're going to be a good GM/President/what have you. To quote the immortal Mitch Hedberg, that's like saying "oh, so you're a cook...can you farm?" Success in one field doesn't equate success in a different, yet related, field. Haslam is a business man who also fired a HC after one year...and Chud's team did a whole lot more with a whole lot less. In case you forgot, we were 17th on offense and 9th on defense in Chud's lone year. So, I don't think Haslam is too worried about "living up to his word". They won't start "gelling and winning" when they are trying to force square pegs into round holes. That's the point. If Pettine becomes successful - more power to him. That's what I, and everyone else, wants. But he won't find any success until he stops his high school bullshit like playing his favorites and letting his dumbass friends be defensive coordinator with no repercussions. Stop fucking around with cutesy sub-packages on defense, stop playing the "hot" hand in the offensive backfield. Put the most talented players on the field and scale back down to a base defense. Put the ball in Duke's hands 20 times a game through runs and screens, exploit the defense when they try to bring six every play, deliver two early strikes to Benjamin when you read cover none to keep the defense honest, then run stretch plays sideline to sideline and let Duke plant his foot, make his cut and go. Just play smart football and stop trying to outwit the other coach - because you're not going to do that. agree with this. but to call for his head after a year 1/2 is quite assholish, which a lot of you are being. and btw it didn't matter that holmgren wasn't hired as HC. he was hailed as a saviour by you and everyone else who now has their finger on the 'eject' button for a squad trying to find their way. when did o'neill become pettine's best friend? (asking) what he he married to his sister or something? you think these guys don't see/read the massive storm of shit flying their way by every so-called reporter and disgruntled fan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I would argue that the GM "DID" bring in top ranked talent, but the coach refuses to even take it for a test drive.....and he clearly is playing players who arent playing well.....so, new job or not, if you are failing and you refuse to try something else, then maybe it IS the HC and not the talent.... Especially when you have very good talent that "all of a sudden" cant compete....ala Joe Haden, Tramon Williams, Dwayne Bowe, our entire O Line, Kruger, Whitner, Gipson, Hartline....and many others.... When THIS MANY skilled veterans suddenly become baffoons and you refuse to make ANY adjustments and stubbornly stay the course.....then can you really blame just the talent level???? And I can say "for me", that Ive defended Farmer and Pettine 100%....all the way.....completely.....and I do understand what it takes. Ive bought several "distressed" businesses and flipped em, which is my thing. So Ive been there and done that for 26 years now....for real! I can tell you that Ive certainly made HUGE mistakes, but I also listen to any skilled/long term employees for ideas....and make adjustment after adjustment till things are right. Forcing a square peg into the ole round hole has NEVER worked anywhere....and even though Im not an NFL coach, I can tell you thats whats happening here..... The one thing you dont have to be a Coach to see....is what I based this thread on.....obvious contradictions. Saying one thing and doing another. And holding very visible double standards within the team. Strong leadership doesnt waver, but it also has balls and can admit mistakes when they happen.... You cant say "were gonna play this guy cause we need to see what he can do".....then NOT play several others because you claim to already know what they can do......and claim to have transparency, then spew a bunch of crap that everyone knows is BS.... Yeah....he's in his second year and he's assembled a staff full of rookies(first mistake, right there). If he's to be successful, he HAS to look around at what successful coaches do and start doing it.....successful people surround themselves with successful people....and I dont see that happening.....I dont see adjustments....I dont even see him admitting there is a problem. He seems to think its just a few missed assignments.....and THAT is the troubling part.....and THAT is why Im playing armchair QB....Not because I think I know more than him about Coaching.... but because I know about leadership and being in charge of a turn around and its the same in business as it is in football.....and he doesnt look up to the task... Maybe for his "first" HC job, he shouldnt have taken the most challenging one in the league....and if he's gonna tackle it, then he needs to do what good leaders do and get some people in here that know what the fuck they are doing. And when they dont do it right, he needs to say that and make them adjust......simple shit really.....even if it IS coming from my armchair(or office)(same diff) Mud, You outdid yourself with this thread & post & I agree totally. Pettine has some GREAT resources inside AND outside the locker room that he has REFUSED to utilize. In fact, his failure to properly utilize talent & knowledge will be his undoing. I am one who believes we have far more talent than it appears. Improper use of that talent is killing production & morale. I'll ride this out, but Jimmy needs to make changes with some knowledgeable consultants giving input. We MUST get it right next time. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 agree with this. but to call for his head after a year 1/2 is quite assholish, which a lot of you are being. you think these guys don't see/read the massive storm of shit flying their way by every so-called reporter and disgruntled fan? I hope they do see/read it....perhaps they'll rethink some things.... Ive cooled down some and want to say(again) that I dread another change at HC....yes yes my opening post says to can him now, but Ill back up on that some....though SOMETHING has to change.... I honestly do think Pettine could succeed "if" he had some help.....but there is no one there with NFL experience to act as a mentor or sounding board for the coaches or GM.....also no one there qualified to judge any of them on job performance.... And Pettine needs to adjust his personnel some. We have back up corners playing man against the best receivers in the league and coach expects them to execute the same as a Haden. He needs to understand the limits of his players and "adjust", instead of saying a guy like Bademosi just isnt executing.....guess what, a guy like Bademosi should NOT be covering an Antonio Brown w/o help. And if a coach cant see that and adjust to his(and theirs) personnel......blech So for now, I say OK let Pettine finish the year....and with some quality adjustments....move forward.....But how about: 1) Getting some more quality NFL experience on that staff....both coaching and in the FO......they need it bad.... 2) Lets see some coaching adjustments...and progress.....supposed to be at graduate level right now.... 3) Lets see some consistency with how these players are brought up.... 4) Lets see some faith in the players they ALL agreed to bring in...... 5) Lets see some improvement before the end of the year.....we spiraled down last year and still havent righted the ship... So...losing out(again) would not sit well at all.....but finishing strong could buy another year of support from this fan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I am one who believes we have far more talent than it appears. Improper use of that talent is killing production & morale. I'll ride this out, but Jimmy needs to make changes with some knowledgeable consultants giving input. We MUST get it right next time. Mike You said it buddy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Bone Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Great thread/opening post Mud....... as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 It's all been figured out. Pettine wants to lose. He loves answering questions on why the team sucks. He surely never wants to coach again. He's all in for submarining his coaches futures. Or wait maybe the guy who watches practice, the games and the game film may actually have a better grasp on the talent level on the team the say maybe a dude on the interweb. The team is sooooo talented that the best player was being shopped for a first and a third Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 It's all been figured out. Pettine wants to lose. He loves answering questions on why the team sucks. He surely never wants to coach again. He's all in for submarining his coaches futures. Or wait maybe the guy who watches practice, the games and the game film may actually have a better grasp on the talent level on the team the say maybe a dude on the interweb. The team is sooooo talented that the best player was being shopped for a first and a third Hey, look, its Mike Pettine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Hey, look, its Mike Pettine. Say what you want. Chud stinks, Shanahan stinks, Mangini stinks....the constant the lack of fucking talent. Our O-Line is so awesome because PFF grades them that way until you watch the game and we can't run the ball. Then it's not the O-Lines fault it's Crow's. Then we play the great Duke Johnson with the same results. It's a constant blame the next guy instead of admitting we've drafted shit and we sign shit. Mingo was the 6th fucking pick in the draft and some are arguing that he should play more. The 6th pick in the 2013 draft should be dominate not worrying about playing time. Mingo should be so fucking good were asking why don't they give him rest. Are Raider fans saying Mack needs more of a look? Rhetorical. Justin Gilbert is a fucking waste. Tabor has to explain his "progress" as a special team player. So many making excuses last year about how hard it is to be a starting corner, when Gilbert plays he's outmatched but by all means let's blame Oneill for this clown. It never ends, god forbid as fans we accept the fact THE BROWNS FUCKING STINK and it's nobody's fault but the guys who put on the jerseys and get beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeputyDawg Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Great posts and an even better finish Mudfly. It's true what you says Browns 52 which means we need to question who is hiring all these coaches. As Mudfly points out the current crop of 5 are all new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Say what you want. Chud stinks, Shanahan stinks, Mangini stinks....the constant the lack of fucking talent. Our O-Line is so awesome because PFF grades them that way until you watch the game and we can't run the ball. Then it's not the O-Lines fault it's Crow's. Then we play the great Duke Johnson with the same results. It's a constant blame the next guy instead of admitting we've drafted shit and we sign shit. Mingo was the 6th fucking pick in the draft and some are arguing that he should play more. The 6th pick in the 2013 draft should be dominate not worrying about playing time. Mingo should be so fucking good were asking why don't they give him rest. Are Raider fans saying Mack needs more of a look? Rhetorical. Justin Gilbert is a fucking waste. Tabor has to explain his "progress" as a special team player. So many making excuses last year about how hard it is to be a starting corner, when Gilbert plays he's outmatched but by all means let's blame Oneill for this clown. It never ends, god forbid as fans we accept the fact THE BROWNS FUCKING STINK and it's nobody's fault but the guys who put on the jerseys and get beat. Thanks Mike Pettine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenew23 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Here are some potential Pettine replacements... Top-Tier Coaching candidates (who probably would refuse the Browns' job) David Shaw - HC - Stanford Josh McDaniels - OC - New England Hue Jackson - OC - Cincinnati Re-tread coaches (might have some interest) Jim Schwartz - FA Eric Mangini - DC - San Francisco Mike Smith - FA Mike Sherman - FA (basically retired and coaching HS football) Doug Marrone - OL/Asst.HC - Jacksonville College Wild Cards Art Briles - HC - Baylor (Has a pretty impressive resume) Kevin Sumlin - HC - Texas A&M (I have no interest in him) Coordinators Sean McDermott - DC - Carolina Adam Gase - OC - Bears Darrel Bevell - OC - Seattle There are more, but these are the only ones I'd have some interest in.. The "Dark Horse" Matt Patricia - DC - New England (doesn't really have enough experience to make the jump, and he seems too smart to ever leave New England; however, if you read up on this guy he will certainly gather some attention from teams in need of good coaches) Anybody else out there would probably be equal or worse than Pettine; therefore, a move would not even be worth it... And please, get over the Gruden / Cowher idea... Those guys are NEVER going to coach again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Eric Mangini never sold his house in Strongsville. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I would prefer that Pettine stays...but looking at that list. No to everyone on the retread list. McDaniels and Shaw are intriguing and I'd add Brian Kelly to that list. No to the college wild cards I don't know enough about the rest to have an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why?!?!? Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Wow, seeing it written out like that is fucking pathetic . . . I don't even know how it's possible for management / coaching to be this bad. When the announcers, media . . . guys at home on the couch . . . are constantly scratching their heads about so many decisions regarding personnel / scheme / game day decisions somethings not right. Sometimes coaches make calls that don't work out but at least you can look back and say "I can see why he did that" but some of the things going on are seriously below high school coaching grade. It's been "what the fuck are you guys doing" more often than not . . . It's really a fucking crime these guys are getting paid more money than I'll likely earn in my entire lifetime for this travesty of a season. This last game was the straw that broke the back . . . All day long our db's are getting toasted yet still no safety help, no increase in pass rush on a gimpy QB? It's this kind of "stick to the plan" (i.e. my scheme) even if Roethlisberger is raping it stubbornness that Pettine deserves to lose his job over. Great coaches have to have the ability to adapt . . . We have more talent than 2-8 for fuck's sake. I would rather have the panel from the after show on 43 running this team. At least three of them go way back and could probably work together cohesively. If nothing else they all love Cleveland, the Browns and the fans. What's the worst that could possibly happen . . . We become the laughing stock of the NFL? Dixon - GM Kosar - HC Golic - DC Jurevicious - OC We've tried just about everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Wow, seeing it written out like that is fucking pathetic . . . I don't even know how it's possible for management / coaching to be this bad. When the announcers, media . . . guys at home on the couch . . . are constantly scratching their heads about so many decisions regarding personnel / scheme / game day decisions somethings not right. Sometimes coaches make calls that don't work out but at least you can look back and say "I can see why he did that" but some of the things going on are seriously below high school coaching grade. It's been "what the fuck are you guys doing" more often than not . . . It's really a fucking crime these guys are getting paid more money than I'll likely earn in my entire lifetime for this travesty of a season. This last game was the straw that broke the back . . . All day long our db's are getting toasted yet still no safety help, no increase in pass rush on a gimpy QB? It's this kind of "stick to the plan" (i.e. my scheme) even if Roethlisberger is raping it stubbornness that Pettine deserves to lose his job over. Great coaches have to have the ability to adapt . . . We have more talent than 2-8 for fuck's sake. I would rather have the panel from the after show on 43 running this team. At least three of them go way back and could probably work together cohesively. If nothing else they all love Cleveland, the Browns and the fans. What's the worst that could possibly happen . . . We become the laughing stock of the NFL? Dixon - GM Kosar - HC Golic - DC Jurevicious - OC We've tried just about everything else. The fans here might give them 2 years before running them out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why?!?!? Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Probably true lol. I'm not being completely serious, but damn, this is as bad as it's ever been. Clearly something needs to change and we've yet to see any changes . . . Plan's not working Mike in case you didn't notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 This team needs a 3/4 fire sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I think I kind of had that view in the back of my mind, that Pett makes his mind up on people early and doesn't sway from that, but to see it clear like that makes it obvious. Why is Bademosi playing over Gilbert? I've not seen Bademosi break up a pass, get a pick, or even make an open field tackle. Is Gilbert really worse than that? Bademosi has hit his ceiling, and it's very low. Gilbert could be much better. But they had him covering Antonio Brown- with disastrous results. Why is Bowe not playing? We have such a lack of playmakers at the WR position, is he really much worse than Gabriel? We had to play Marlon Moore towards the end of the game because of injuries. I think a lot of Browns fans want to know the answer. Everyone knows the Manziel story - Pett doesn't like him and seems reluctant to play him at all. When McCown was injured vs AZ, he was left in there, but JFF has a contact lens issue and Davis is rushed on to the field to cover for a snap? We'll see what JFF can do over the last 6 games. I really, really, hope this view is wrong, because I like Pettine as a man, and he's clearly at least a solid DC. He could be the guy to turn it around, if only he gets *his* guys in place. That means he needs to get much more involved in the scouting and drafting process, which may not be a good thing. Even if Manziel plays well the last 6 games, 1-5 might not be enough to save Mike's job. I hope the inability of our pass rush to even slightly perturb a gimped Roethlisberger helped everyone realize our scheme and player need revamped next year. And that we need to draft a pass rusher. No more small fgt speed rushers either. We need someone that can take the shortest line possible to the QB. Another reason to question Pettine and Farmer. Improved pass rush was supposed to be a priority- it's regressed. Managing personnel development and building a winning team, not from a week-to-week basis, is one of the primary jobs of a head coach. For whatever reason, Pettine is speaking like he's in a one week bubble with his only focus on the team's next opponent. That's isn't just weird, it's insane. His personnel decisions are questionable as Mud laid out already, and has nothing to do with the players Farmer drafted -- since Pettine continues to say he was on board with and involved in every pick Farmer made. If they're going to deflect blame to their "Groupthink" approach, and they can't work those players into their game plans after they reached consensus on them, then their process is broken and they both need to be fired. Immediately. Being likable and having a shaved head don't excuse you from losing 13 of your last 15 games, and looking like an amateur in the process. What has Mike Pettine shown anyone that says he has improved the organization or his players after 26 games as the head coach? -- I'll hang up and listen. I agree with you Mike, especially the red. Why was he all fired up to give his sixth round guy a start, or put Bademosi in a situation where he was doomed to fail, (covering Brown) instead of Gilbert- he of sub 4.4 speed. If Justin is really that bad- he has to be one of the worst CB picks in recent memory. I've been to a few games, and it's obvious his Chinese Fire drill defense isn't working. Mud, You outdid yourself with this thread & post & I agree totally. Pettine has some GREAT resources inside AND outside the locker room that he has REFUSED to utilize. In fact, his failure to properly utilize talent & knowledge will be his undoing. I am one who believes we have far more talent than it appears. Improper use of that talent is killing production & morale. I'll ride this out, but Jimmy needs to make changes with some knowledgeable consultants giving input. We MUST get it right next time. Mike As they say- there's not that much difference in talent level between the top and bottom teams- so why are we playing like crap all of a sudden? Finally someone was looking at coaching candidates should Pettine get axed. I'd be down with Kirk Ferentz, if we could get him to leave Iowa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I'd be down with Kirk Ferentz, if we could get him to leave Iowa.Me too, even better how about Urban Meyer? I think we would stand a better chance of hitting the lottery than having either of those guys in Berea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Finally someone was looking at coaching candidates should Pettine get axed. I'd be down with Kirk Ferentz, if we could get him to leave Iowa. Not dismissing him as a good candidate if we're looking but surprised that his record at Iowa isn't all that great... Overall 137–106 Bowls 6–6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I'd be down with Kirk Ferentz, if we could get him to leave Iowa. you mean a guy that was an assistant under belichick while he was here? and saban as the DC under belichick? i think i put my vote in for him 2 years ago. everyone wants to bitch about belichick being a cheat but imagine if we had the whole staff here for at least 10 years w/o the move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 This OP is phenomenal. How anyone reads it and concludes Farmer is the problem is beyond me. Farmer strikes me as a guy that knows exactly what his plan is and he's the smartest guy in the room. This guy probably pounds 3 books a week. He came in with a plan and is executing that plan on his end. Very few of his draft picks/FA picks were horrible on paper, but a coach simply refusing to play them will of course make them look bad. Additionally, he's made the nice UDFA pick ups we're all aware of. He giftwrapped Pettine the most expensive defense in the league (and you can't find enough examples of gross overpayment to say expectations of it shouldn't have been high) in addition to an offense that is plenty good. Yet we sit here at 2-8. And that's Ray freaking Farmer's fault? How? Good job Mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 This OP is phenomenal. How anyone reads it and concludes Farmer is the problem is beyond me. Farmer strikes me as a guy that knows exactly what his plan is and he's the smartest guy in the room. This guy probably pounds 3 books a week. He came in with a plan and is executing that plan on his end. Very few of his draft picks/FA picks were horrible on paper, but a coach simply refusing to play them will of course make them look bad. Additionally, he's made the nice UDFA pick ups we're all aware of. He giftwrapped Pettine the most expensive defense in the league (and you can't find enough examples of gross overpayment to say expectations of it shouldn't have been high) in addition to an offense that is plenty good. Yet we sit here at 2-8. And that's Ray freaking Farmer's fault? How? Good job Mud. Well, when your first round picks like Gilbert, JMZ, Erving, Shelton fail to produce right away, you will be in for criticism. But I agree that these guys all need time to prove themselves. Its just that we have seen the Weeden's/Mingos/TRs/ etc. fail.....we are conditioned to think that the newer picks are going to be failures as well since they haven't clicked right away. Bottom line: these guys need to step it up and perform according to their draft status for us to think that Farmer has made good choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Well, when your first round picks like Gilbert, JMZ, Erving, Shelton fail to produce right away, you will be in for criticism. But I agree that these guys all need time to prove themselves. Its just that we have seen the Weeden's/Mingos/TRs/ etc. fail.....we are conditioned to think that the newer picks are going to be failures as well since they haven't clicked right away. Bottom line: these guys need to step it up and perform according to their draft status for us to think that Farmer has made good choices. I agree Gipper. And with that thought in mind they need to commit to the rest of the season for Gilbert and Erving as well if they really want to know what they can do going forward. Shelton at least plays as does Orchard now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBrown Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Orchard will be a good player I think, he's flashing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 No disagreement on that. Except that, as Mud states, Gilbert actually did do pretty well last year. Manziel hasn't played, but will in time (though most think this was Jimmy's pick anyway). Erving's hardly played either and wasn't expected to. It would be nice if Shelton was performing like Baltimore's rookie noseguard but he hasn't been terrible by any stretch. I think he has been impacted by the constant shuffling of personnel, as has been noted here a bunch. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Not dismissing him as a good candidate if we're looking but surprised that his record at Iowa isn't all that great... Overall 137–106 Bowls 6–6 RE: Ferentz. Iowa sucks hind tit recruiting in the Big 10 & that's not Kirk's fault. OSU gets all the top talent, Michigan and MSU scarf up the rest. Locally, he's competing with Nebraska, Wisconsin, even Kansas State & Iowa State, Northwestern if the kid is smart. Iowa has never been considered a true high profile program. you mean a guy that was an assistant under belichick while he was here? and saban as the DC under belichick? i think i put my vote in for him 2 years ago. everyone wants to bitch about belichick being a cheat but imagine if we had the whole staff here for at least 10 years w/o the move? That was a "Dream Team" of coaches Mik. You can bet when Iowa makes the Big 10 Championship game (a damn near certainty), some NFL team is going to drive the Brinks to Iowa City. PS, been there, seen that. It's a nice enough campus- but it doesn't compare to Wisconsin's as a recruiting tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I agree Gipper. And with that thought in mind they need to commit to the rest of the season for Gilbert and Erving as well if they really want to know what they can do going forward. Shelton at least plays as does Orchard now. I don't know about that. JMZ sure. But Gilbert will not be put in over Haden and Williams if all are healthy.....but they could put him at nickelback. And Erving is not going to be put ahead of Bito or Mack if all are healthy. He needs to be the backup for now. He played like a bad backup vs. Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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