Pettine, Not Farmer, To Blame?

[BaconHound]

nah....

 

I think they should fire Pettine, Oneil, and Farmer immediately, or just after the

squealer game...

 

and move Flip to interim HC, hire Bernie Kosar as asst OC/play caller, find a

real DC with a real defense tha actually works, and isn't as complicated as

a works of Shakespeare...

 

and let the other interim GM that was there while Farmer had to take a hike... back in place.

 

Then hire a real GM next spring.

 

Piece of cake

 

Hire Flip as the interim head coach? The guy who managed to score 10 points with future hall of fame Johnny Football

[Pumpkin Eater]

 

Mark wouldn't like it- but if Sean Payton decides to exit New Orleans- back the truck up Jimmy.

 

 

Cal- I'm beginning to see a lot of a young Tom Coughlin in Pettine. Watch him get fired, and learn from his mistakes. (And Mike is Making plenty of them)

 

 

Bingo. How can a defensive minded coach let his defense go from almost respectable, to dead skunk stinko in one year? Can't blame the crap run defense on Haden and Gipson being hurt. If he's not playing guys because their not "his" guys, or they have a bad attitude- I think it was said earlier- that's High School level BS.

Tom Coughlin? Did he coach in the NFL before Jacksonville? Because he had them in the afc championship game in his second year coaching there.

[hoorta]

Tom Coughlin? Did he coach in the NFL before Jacksonville? Because he had them in the afc championship game in his second year coaching there.

 

I was talking about style.

[browns52]

Plenty of coaches to choose from, but it'd probably another 2-year reset because nobody we could get would be experienced enough to be able to maximize our talent in a one-year turnaround... Unless we got a veteran retread along the same lines as a Reed, Fox, Arians, DelRio, or Fisher OR got lucky with a guy like Bowles or Quinn...

Who knows. The team again is in turmoil....What a disgrace and embarrasement...

[CaineDeSoulis]

Anyone ever give any thought to giving Chris Tabor a shot at being the next Head Coach? Definitely has the passion and fire to lead. I'm about 1000% positive that pettine and farmer is doing everything in there power to win football games.I mean they are in a fight for their jobs and careers here.The problem is they just are not being very effective at their jobs. Farmer's FA Acquisitions have been from mediocre at best to incompetence at worst. Pettine appears to be frustrated that his "system" isn't as effective as he thought it would be. players have been under-performing at offensive skill positions (WR/RB). as far as pettine is concerned I think he is putting too much stock into his "system" and not enough stock into how to properly utilize the skillset our players have.

I find it hard to believe that each player is having a bad year. It is alot more likely our coach is having a bad year or possibly has an ineffective system installed. The regression shown on defense and to smaller extent the offense has given me enough reason to want to see some coaching changes. The fact farmer spent so much of our cap on veteran players that have been so ineffective for us. Is very alarming and very detrimental to the team's future. His draft picks have been pretty suspect as well. not to mention he served a 4 game suspension at the beginning of the year. I don't forsee his return as gm in cleveland next year. Pettine could be back if we start winning some games and the defense turns the corner. So far i have just seen regression so i doubt it but maybe.

As far as Tabor being the HC i think he has the fire and he HAS to love cleveland 4 years couple of owners 3 or 4 head coaches? and our ST play has been some of the best in the league under him. We will need to get some Veteran Coordinators to help him in his transition to HC. I feel like he is the type of guy that isn't as interested in schemes and playbooks and getting this player to win the way he wants to win. He's the Special Teams coach. The every player needs to be the winner mentality. Never Quit always battle. maybe we dont need the next offensive genius or the next defensive mastermind. Maybe we need the guy that actually teaches fearlessness and mental toughness. we may not be the most talented team on the field but by god we would pay with heart.

[jcam222]

Anyone ever give any thought to giving Chris Tabor a shot at being the next Head Coach? Definitely has the passion and fire to lead. I'm about 1000% positive that pettine and farmer is doing everything in there power to win football games.I mean they are in a fight for their jobs and careers here.The problem is they just are not being very effective at their jobs. Farmer's FA Acquisitions have been from mediocre at best to incompetence at worst. Pettine appears to be frustrated that his "system" isn't as effective as he thought it would be. players have been under-performing at offensive skill positions (WR/RB). as far as pettine is concerned I think he is putting too much stock into his "system" and not enough stock into how to properly utilize the skillset our players have.

 

I find it hard to believe that each player is having a bad year. It is alot more likely our coach is having a bad year or possibly has an ineffective system installed. The regression shown on defense and to smaller extent the offense has given me enough reason to want to see some coaching changes. The fact farmer spent so much of our cap on veteran players that have been so ineffective for us. Is very alarming and very detrimental to the team's future. His draft picks have been pretty suspect as well. not to mention he served a 4 game suspension at the beginning of the year. I don't forsee his return as gm in cleveland next year. Pettine could be back if we start winning some games and the defense turns the corner. So far i have just seen regression so i doubt it but maybe.

 

As far as Tabor being the HC i think he has the fire and he HAS to love cleveland 4 years couple of owners 3 or 4 head coaches? and our ST play has been some of the best in the league under him. We will need to get some Veteran Coordinators to help him in his transition to HC. I feel like he is the type of guy that isn't as interested in schemes and playbooks and getting this player to win the way he wants to win. He's the Special Teams coach. The every player needs to be the winner mentality. Never Quit always battle. maybe we dont need the next offensive genius or the next defensive mastermind. Maybe we need the guy that actually teaches fearlessness and mental toughness. we may not be the most talented team on the field but by god we would pay with heart.

Chris this is not the right place to plead your case.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Anyone ever give any thought to giving Chris Tabor a shot at being the next Head Coach? Definitely has the passion and fire to lead. I'm about 1000% positive that pettine and farmer is doing everything in there power to win football games.I mean they are in a fight for their jobs and careers here.The problem is they just are not being very effective at their jobs. Farmer's FA Acquisitions have been from mediocre at best to incompetence at worst. Pettine appears to be frustrated that his "system" isn't as effective as he thought it would be. players have been under-performing at offensive skill positions (WR/RB). as far as pettine is concerned I think he is putting too much stock into his "system" and not enough stock into how to properly utilize the skillset our players have.

 

I find it hard to believe that each player is having a bad year. It is alot more likely our coach is having a bad year or possibly has an ineffective system installed. The regression shown on defense and to smaller extent the offense has given me enough reason to want to see some coaching changes. The fact farmer spent so much of our cap on veteran players that have been so ineffective for us. Is very alarming and very detrimental to the team's future. His draft picks have been pretty suspect as well. not to mention he served a 4 game suspension at the beginning of the year. I don't forsee his return as gm in cleveland next year. Pettine could be back if we start winning some games and the defense turns the corner. So far i have just seen regression so i doubt it but maybe.

 

As far as Tabor being the HC i think he has the fire and he HAS to love cleveland 4 years couple of owners 3 or 4 head coaches? and our ST play has been some of the best in the league under him. We will need to get some Veteran Coordinators to help him in his transition to HC. I feel like he is the type of guy that isn't as interested in schemes and playbooks and getting this player to win the way he wants to win. He's the Special Teams coach. The every player needs to be the winner mentality. Never Quit always battle. maybe we dont need the next offensive genius or the next defensive mastermind. Maybe we need the guy that actually teaches fearlessness and mental toughness. we may not be the most talented team on the field but by god we would pay with heart.

 

Chris Tabor, ladies and gentlemen.

[StinkHole]

 

Farmer is the only one that should be fired. Petine is doin the best with what he's got.

 

A coach gotta have talent to succeed. Great talent trumps great coaching.

 

You think Belicheck could take this group and turn them into a winner?

 

The Cowboys under Barry Switzer won the Super Bowl because they had talent. Barry Switzer was a bum.

[Browns_Fucking_Rule]

Unless the browns can actually upgrade the coach or gm with a viable and proven upgrade they should stay the course through next year with these guys.

[Tour2ma]

That's how it works in a successful system. What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision...

Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...

Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.

 

Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?

[TexasAg1969]

Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...

Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.

 

Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?

 

Having the vision may be in concert, but is the method of fulfilling that vision in concert? That is the real question. And something on both sides of the ball is causing that vision to fail miserably at the moment. We don't run worth a crap and we don't stop the run worth a crap. Something is spoiling the recipe for successful vision fulfillment. And I'm not smart enough to decipher if it's on or the other or both who are responsible for that failure. Too many "group" decisions to obscure the picture and no one is owning up.

 

One thing I am very certain of in this league though, if you do not have a legitimate threat in the passing game, then every decent defense will stonewall your run game. And that is an area that I do not think either has come to terms with in fulfilling the offensive vision. The same argument can be made in term of not having a legitimate pass rush and edge setting. We either do not have the players or we don't have the scheme to make it work. Whatever it is it is causing the fulfillment of the vision to fail.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...

Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.

 

Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?

I don't think the vision has changed, but Pettine isn't seemingly getting it done. The moves Farmer made coincided with that vision, mostly. Two runningbacks in the draft. Offensive lineman in the first round. Defensive lineman in the first round. Cornerback in the first round. Top five FA CB. Veteran LB, veteran SS.

 

Yet, here we are with a defensive roster that is, on paper, a talented bunch...and our defense is shit. Here we are with an offensive line that is ranked second in the league, and we can't run the ball.

 

To me, that sounds like a failure in coaching - not in personnel. A lot of people like to say "oh we could have had so-and-so" without considering the fact that they had no idea who "so-and-so" was come draft time and they probably agreed with most of Farmer's draft when it happened. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

I feel a lot of people chastising Farmer really would hate it if I went back and looked at old pre-draft or draft day threads.

[Tour2ma]

OK... but that's different from:

What we currently have is a GM who has a vision for the team, a HC who doesn't agree with the vision...

I also don't think the vision has changed.

 

I've no doubt Pet desired a primo CB. I've no idea whose idea it was that Gilbert was that primo CB. I do not know the CB positions as well as I do others, but beyond the basic, man/zone and press/off decision points, I have a hard time seeing "scheme fit" being as big of an issue there as it is for other positions.

 

D-line... we have one example of a player with a speed/power combo that can be effective in any situation... on any down. That this is compounded by player misuse as tia, Cleve, 23 and you sometimes claim citing gap techs, etc., is not really in doubt, but I think it is the lesser factor.

 

At the core of our Defensive personnel issues IMO are still our LBs. Magnified in a 3-4 look, it is still significant in a 4-3. Again looking at speed/power combo talent, who pops up?

 

 

There is talent in the front 7, but it is not versatile. When it is not versatile, you have to guess which combination to use in which situation and the near universally hated shuttling ensues. If an opposing NFL OC can't plan for that, they are not even worthy of being a collegiate OC.

 

 

I don't think the "agreement" on the vision has changed. I do think the execution by both parties has fallen short. Whether Pet/Farm is a marriage that can survive depends on the willingness of each to accept their personal portion of the blame. So far who seems to be doing that?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

OK... but that's different from:

 

I also don't think the vision has changed.

 

I've no doubt Pet desired a primo CB. I've no idea whose idea it was that Gilbert was that primo CB. I do not know the CB positions as well as I do others, but beyond the basic, man/zone and press/off decision points, I have a hard time seeing "scheme fit" being as big of an issue there as it is for other positions.

 

D-line... we have one example of a player with a speed/power combo that can be effective in any situation... on any down. That this is compounded by player misuse as tia, Cleve, 23 and you sometimes claim citing gap techs, etc., is not really in doubt, but I think it is the lesser factor.

 

At the core of our Defensive personnel issues IMO are still our LBs. Magnified in a 3-4 look, it is still significant in a 4-3. Again looking at speed/power combo talent, who pops up?

 

 

There is talent in the front 7, but it is not versatile. When it is not versatile, you have to guess which combination to use in which situation and the near universally hated shuttling ensues. If an opposing NFL OC can't plan for that, they are not even worthy of being a collegiate OC.

 

 

I don't think the "agreement" on the vision has changed. I do think the execution by both parties has fallen short. Whether Pet/Farm is a marriage that can survive depends on the willingness of each to accept their personal portion of the blame. So far who seems to be doing that?

 

Okay, I misspoke. Pettine doesn't seem to have disagreed with the vision - he's disagreed with the way we're going about achieving it - namely in the players he's been given. The more I look at it, the more that OBR report makes sense - Pettine is simply playing favorites.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that Bowe can positively contribute to this team in some fashion. Why isn't he out there? Because he's not healthy? He's seemed pretty healthy all year. You're telling me that he can't trot out in obvious passing situations in a 4-wide set and run a mid tree route to free up someone underneath or over top? There's also no doubt in my mind that Gilbert can grade out positively if he's given more than KR/PR duties. Should he be a full-time starter? Based on what we've seen thus far - no. But I have a very hard time believing that he can't beat out K'Wuan, Desir, etc. for some rotational duties right now. Yet these guys aren't ever seeing the field for what reason again? Because our offense and defense is such a perfectly oiled machine that they don't fit in there and they would be detrimental to our success thus far?

 

Off of the top of my head -I think we have a rather versatile front 3/4. Starks has proven throughout his career to be rather effective as a 3 or a 5 tech. Shelton is a hard 1 tech, I believe. The rest of our line can seemingly play two positions, based on size and speed and general skillsets. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, I am just going purely off of what I envision them as right now. Our LB's, on the other hand, are not versatile in the least...and that is where some of our problem is. We're forcing Kruger out of position, we're forcing Orchard out of position, we're forcing Mingo out of position. I don't think any one of them is a coverage backer. To me, that's a coaching issue and not a personnel issue - because I really like the Orchard pick.

 

Show me a defense that lives and dies on OLBer's being coverage backers and I'll show you a defense that I can very easily beat.

 

I have tremendously cooled on Pettine over the past two weeks. He's giving off the vibe of a very inflexible coach who can't adapt his gameplan to what he's given - and that's not a good thing at all.

[Tour2ma]

Agree with your general questioning and understand your "cooling". I have openly questioned the evidence of Pet adapting his scheme to personnel... the approach he trumpeted upon his arrival... for weeks now.

 

But I do not see the player evaluations you seem to see.

- I see your use of "trot" when it comes to Bowe as appropriate to his route running as well as his field entry/ exit.

- Who besides Des Bryant play the run and pass close to equally well?

- What team is not forced to cover RBs or TEs with LBs multiple times a game?

 

Yes... Kruger is abysmal in coverage and the times we have chosen to put him in that role deserve ridicule. Mingo setting the edge is nearly as bad. But you cannot hide these players weaknesses... at least not all at the same time.

 

Orchard strikes me as our most balanced OLB. As yet he may not be at an adequate level in either role, but he has shown signs of being coachable, e.g., his 3rd&2, stay-at-home sack of a bootlegging Dalton a week ago.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Agree with your general questioning and understand your "cooling". I have openly questioned the evidence of Pet adapting his scheme to personnel... the approach he trumpeted upon his arrival... for weeks now.

 

But I do not see the player evaluations you seem to see.

- I see your use of "trot" when it comes to Bowe as appropriate to his route running as well as his field entry/ exit.

- Who besides Des Bryant play the run and pass close to equally well?

- What team is not forced to cover RBs or TEs with LBs multiple times a game?

 

Yes... Kruger is abysmal in coverage and the times we have chosen to put him in that role deserve ridicule. Mingo setting the edge is nearly as bad. But you cannot hide these players weaknesses... at least not all at the same time.

 

Orchard strikes me as our most balanced OLB. As yet he may not be at an adequate level in either role, but he has shown signs of being coachable, e.g., his 3rd&2, stay-at-home sack of a bootlegging Dalton a week ago.

 

 

There's a difference between tasking a LB to cover multiple times a game, and taking a bona fide Buck LBer and throwing him in coverage for a majority of his snaps and, for all intents and purposes, both Mingo and Kruger are Buck LBer's. The only reason they exist on a football team is to get pressure on pass plays and contain on rushes. Putting them in coverage is a liability, and it's what opposing offensive coordinators game plan for.

 

Mingo is too weak to play on the right and Kruger isn't rangey enough to play on the left but it seems like that's where I've seen them frequently. Orchard may be the most versatile of the bunch, but he's a rookie and we're tasking him with basically being the jack of all trades backer, so there will be growing pains.

 

As for Bowe, there isn't sufficient enough game tape on him for me to make an assessment on his ability, but he's a damn sight more talented on paper than Hartline. With our relatively poor production from a WR not named Benjamin, it's hard for me to believe that Bowe can't crack the lineup if even for more than two plays a game. I'd venture a bet that he's no slower than Larry Fitzgerald is this year, yet Fitz is still quick enough to have an impact. Bowe's speed, or lack thereof, is only exacerbated by the fact that he's been on the field with Gabriel, Hawkins, Benjamin etc. He didn't look any slower than Barnidge...you're saying we can't put Bowe in the slot and have him draw a LB in coverage on third downs?

[thenew23]

Read Jim O'Neil's biography on Clevelandbrowns.com

 

It tells the story:

In 2014, we were

5th in red zone defense

11th in 3rd down defense

9th in points per game

1st in QB rating

2nd in INTs

9th in yards per play

 

But it leaves out the run D, which was still terrible; however, overall the group was effective (9th in points per game). How can you come back with mostly the same talent, even improved in some areas IMHO and go to 26th in points allowed and 24th in QB rating? Not to mention, get EVEN WORSE at rush D.

[Tour2ma]

TC,

We can't even put Barn in the slot and draw LB coverage on 3rd...

 

Not that Bowe's spirit would be indestructible IF in fact he has been wronged out of spite, but I see nothing remotely close to Fitz. Fitz's move to the slot has revitalized him... not back to the near-burner, 4.5-ish speed he once had, but he has been reborn. And Fitz is still quick, which I see as a separate asset from speed.

 

On your left/rights... Offensive or Defensive? Kruger lived on our Defense's left last year as a pass -rusher/edge setter while Mingo lived on our bench. *** Hyperbole Alert***

 

Had to look up "Buck LB", but yes, Kruger is the very definition of one. Mingo? Fits the definition, but not the role. Pet himself has said he is our best cover OLB. That might be a very sad statement, but it is what it is...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

TC,

We can't even put Barn in the slot and draw LB coverage on 3rd...

 

Not that Bowe's spirit would be indestructible IF in fact he has been wronged out of spite, but I see nothing remotely close to Fitz. Fitz's move to the slot has revitalized him... not back to the near-burner, 4.5-ish speed he once had, but he has been reborn. And Fitz is still quick, which I see as a separate asset from speed.

 

On your left/rights... Offensive or Defensive? Kruger lived on our Defense's left last year as a pass -rusher/edge setter while Mingo lived on our bench. *** Hyperbole Alert***

 

Had to look up "Buck LB", but yes, Kruger is the very definition of one. Mingo? Fits the definition, but not the role. Pet himself has said he is our best cover OLB. That might be a very sad statement, but it is what it is...

 

Offensive, sorry. Kruger can't match up with elite left tackles and beat them consistently, but he is physical enough to match up with generally more stout RT's and prove to be effective.

 

Now we've got him shifting across the field as a strongside coverage backer more often than not and I just don't see the point in it. He's proven time and again he is a pass rusher first and foremost. Mingo was the right pick physically, he's a tweener with great speed and solid potential as a rusher, but he's apparently our best coverage backer?

 

That kind of epitomizes my point from before - it's like Farmer is stocking the team with players to fill roles, and then Pettine is using them outside of their role. Granted Mingo was technically a holdover from a previous regime, but his skillset lends himself to being a pass rusher and he's not being used as one.

 

Wasn't Malcolm Johnson supposed to be an effective receiving threat at FB? He's rangy, quick and has solid hands...yet he's a complete non-factor in the passing (and running) game. Stuff like that is what bothers me. It seems like, on paper, we have the talent to run the system we originally claimed we would run. But now we're averaging something like 65% of our plays as passing plays? Josh McCown is getting 50 pass attempts a game? How is that anything like what they claimed they would run?

[hoorta]

Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...

Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.

 

Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?

 

Our vision is to have a mission, our mission is to have a vision. TC put it way more technical than I ever could- but the more simplified approach- square pegs in round holes. Wouldn't you say getting destroyed after halftime week after week is our coaching staff being unable to adjust to the other teams halftime adjustments?

 

I think Flugels had it right in the Cinci game. Pettine- "we have to keep Johnny in the pocket more". Marvin Lewis says- "thanks Mike, exactly what I was thinking."

[TexasAg1969]

 

Our vision is to have a mission, our mission is to have a vision. TC put it way more technical than I ever could- but the more simplified approach- square pegs in round holes. Wouldn't you say getting destroyed after halftime week after week is our coaching staff being unable to adjust to the other teams halftime adjustments?

 

I think Flugels had it right in the Cinci game. Pettine- "we have to keep Johnny in the pocket more". Marvin Lewis says- "thanks Mike, exactly what I was thinking."

 

And you said Pettine wasn't capable of halftime adjustments. Shame.

[Tour2ma]

1. Offensive, sorry. Kruger can't match up with elite left tackles and beat them consistently, but he is physical enough to match up with generally more stout RT's and prove to be effective.

 

Now we've got him shifting across the field as a strongside coverage backer more often than not and I just don't see the point in it. He's proven time and again he is a pass rusher first and foremost. Mingo was the right pick physically, he's a tweener with great speed and solid potential as a rusher, but he's apparently our best coverage backer?

 

2. That kind of epitomizes my point from before - it's like Farmer is stocking the team with players to fill roles, and then Pettine is using them outside of their role. Granted Mingo was technically a holdover from a previous regime, but his skillset lends himself to being a pass rusher and he's not being used as one.

 

3. Wasn't Malcolm Johnson supposed to be an effective receiving threat at FB? He's rangy, quick and has solid hands...yet he's a complete non-factor in the passing (and running) game. Stuff like that is what bothers me. It seems like, on paper, we have the talent to run the system we originally claimed we would run. But now we're averaging something like 65% of our plays as passing plays? Josh McCown is getting 50 pass attempts a game? How is that anything like what they claimed they would run?

1. Agree on Kruger... looks out of place opposite opponents LT. Trying to recreate Solomon is best reasome I can come up with fro playing Krugs there. But since I did not see Solomon working opposite Kruger as part of what could only be considered a 5-man line, it's like more of the same.

 

But does that "5-man line" option not suggest that personnel were/ are lacking?

 

2. Mingo was a one-trick holdover... speed and spin. Once OTs caught onto that it was pretty much over for him as a straight-up rusher. But if he is agile enough to cover, then he should be effective as part of a rush scheme.

 

Rush scheme is something I see week in and out by our opponents, but rarely by us. Maddening to see opponents running free and us running into blockers.

 

3. As a converted TE, MJ is supposed to be a passing threat and the little we've seen of him in routes seems to indicate there is talent there. The problem is how do you keep a FB in the game when your run productivity out of the "I" is shit? And MJ is a significant part of that fail.

 

I would love to see stats, but my guess would be our best running formation in 2014 was the SingleBack-2TE set, whereas our best in 2015 may be SingleBack-3WR. Our TE blocking has been that bad, but the added space from spreading the D a little bit more does not hurt either.

 

More than just the higher percentage of passing occurring out of necessity, we seem to be game-planning it. Pet has mentioned in a couple different weeks post-game pressers that "we talked about having to pass more this week" or some similar something.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

1. Agree on Kruger... looks out of place opposite opponents LT. Trying to recreate Solomon is best reasome I can come up with fro playing Krugs there. But since I did not see Solomon working opposite Kruger as part of what could only be considered a 5-man line, it's like more of the same.

 

But does that "5-man line" option not suggest that personnel were/ are lacking?

 

2. Mingo was a one-trick holdover... speed and spin. Once OTs caught onto that it was pretty much over for him as a straight-up rusher. But if he is agile enough to cover, then he should be effective as part of a rush scheme.

 

Rush scheme is something I see week in and out by our opponents, but rarely by us. Maddening to see opponents running free and us running into blockers.

 

3. As a converted TE, MJ is supposed to be a passing threat and the little we've seen of him in routes seems to indicate there is talent there. The problem is how do you keep a FB in the game when your run productivity out of the "I" is shit? And MJ is a significant part of that fail.

 

I would love to see stats, but my guess would be our best running formation in 2014 was the SingleBack-2TE set, whereas our best in 2015 may be SingleBack-3WR. Our TE blocking has been that bad, but the added space from spreading the D a little bit more does not hurt either.

 

More than just the higher percentage of passing occurring out of necessity, we seem to be game-planning it. Pet has mentioned in a couple different weeks post-game pressers that "we talked about having to pass more this week" or some similar something.

 

I see that package more as what they believe to be an innovative defensive front, but in all reality its just a Monster front that just inherently puts us in a mismatch. I guess you could say that our CB's in theory are good enough to plan man lock and that Whitner is enough of a hybrid to be considered a "rover", but I still don't consider it to be a high percentage package for us. Any OC worth his salt sees it, spreads us out, and picks us clean in the short middle, or works his receivers down field and plays the flats.

 

 

I agree about Mingo, his game has evolved very little since he was drafted. However, as a counter point, speed and spin can get you a productive season if you're rushing 95% of the time - see Dwight Freeney. Granted, Mingo is 30 lbs. lighter than Freeney and is nowhere near the same talent level, but the point remains that if you throw him at a QB 60 times a game, he's likely to come away with a sack, a few hurries and a couple tackles. But tossing him out there for 15-20 plays a game, and 8-12 plays of those you're throwing him into coverage, there's no way you're going to see any meaningful production from him.

 

 

MJ is one of the most unfortunate run blockers I've seen, and I can understand why we'd err toward not operating out of I-form with him in there. But then that, in effect, just makes him a useless roster spot. I'd be interested in seeing an I package with MJ/Crow/Dray, then Barnidge split out. Barnidge is just enough of a receiver where he can be a semi-viable threat on the perimeter, but would probably be a killer downfield blocker as well. To me, that's the best utilization of blocking/receiving talent out of I-form that can gather enough yardage on the ground to open up the PA bootleg for MJ et al.

 

It seems like Pet says every week that they talked about passing more than the previous week. By season's end, we're going to be tossing the rock 70 times a game.

[Mudfly]

Evidence? I ask because they were definitely on the same page at their intro, joint presser...

Tough, AFCN team built on running the ball and stout D.

 

Obviously things are not going according to plan in Year 2, but has the vision really changed?

Well, I see evidence of them at least trying to make adjustments.....(which many claim they are too stubborn to do)...

 

Flip has completely changed what he was doing early on.....the planned running game isnt working, so we are throwing it more......the Defense has been off, so people are getting moved around...

 

I dont see stubborn.....I see many attempts to switch up personnel and style of play.....which Id call adjustments....

 

There is talent in the front 7, but it is not versatile. When it is not versatile, you have to guess which combination to use in which situation and the near universally hated shuttling ensues. If an opposing NFL OC can't plan for that, they are not even worthy of being a collegiate OC.

Agree with this 100%.....Our one dimensional specialists are getting exposed.....examples.....Kruger cant tackle, so they run at him......Mingo cant cover, so they throw at him.....pretty basic stuff....

 

And "execution" should get more credit than coaching as to why we are playing poorly...........

 

But it leaves out the run D, which was still terrible; however, overall the group was effective (9th in points per game). How can you come back with mostly the same talent, even improved in some areas IMHO and go to 26th in points allowed and 24th in QB rating? Not to mention, get EVEN WORSE at rush D.

I think the fact that all 3 of our pro bowl DB's have been out has everything to do with it......cant be a #1 pass defense, when all your defenders are hurt......

 

gipson, haden, whitner and Poyer....have all missed significant time......plus Haden and Gipson just havent played well.....so, when 75% of your guys are down....I can see the "why".....

 

I also think this has a LOT to do with our pass rush suffering.....as, I believe, many sacks were due to great pass coverage....

 

And many sacks were also due to Sheard collapsing "his side" and pushing things to Kruger.....w/o Sheard, Kruger suffers....

 

Those are the big differences I see.....

[Mudfly]

We're forcing Kruger out of position, we're forcing Orchard out of position, we're forcing Mingo out of position. I don't think any one of them is a coverage backer.

 

Show me a defense that lives and dies on OLBer's being coverage backers and I'll show you a defense that I can very easily beat.

Well....somebody has to cover.....cant have all your olb's rushing every play.....

 

Yes... Kruger is abysmal in coverage and the times we have chosen to put him in that role deserve ridicule. Mingo setting the edge is nearly as bad. But you cannot hide these players weaknesses... at least not all at the same time.

Kruger is just abysmal....not really good anywhere, if your asking me....

 

There's a difference between tasking a LB to cover multiple times a game.... and throwing him in coverage for a majority of his snaps

 

Orchard may be the most versatile of the bunch, but he's a rookie and we're tasking him with basically being the jack of all trades backer

I think this is a misnomer.....Kruger has played 270 passing downs and rushed the QB 223 times (with only 2 sacks)...while he has dropped into coverage only 48 times....or 5 times a game....or barely once per quarter.....

 

So, no matter how much people think Krugers role has changed, he is very much the teams designated pass rusher....he's just not an effective one....

 

Orchard, on the other hand, has dropped into coverage 45 times on only 120 passing downs....

 

Now we've got him shifting across the field as a strongside coverage backer more often than not and I just don't see the point in it. He's proven time and again he is a pass rusher first and foremost. Mingo was the right pick physically, he's a tweener with great speed and solid potential as a rusher, but he's apparently our best coverage backer?

Ok, so what your saying is...Krugers only skill is to pass rush.....Orchard was drafted as a pass rusher......and Mingo's skills also lean toward pass rusher.....and Farmer has given Pettine what he needs???, but they are being missused....?

 

So....3 pass rushers and no cover backers or run stoppers.....yet its on Pettine?....(lets make it 4 pass rushers, cause thats what Armonty does too).....

 

 

I agree about Mingo, .... speed and spin can get you a productive season if you're rushing 95% of the time .... the point remains that if you throw him at a QB 60 times a game, he's likely to come away with a sack, a few hurries and a couple tackles. But tossing him out there for 15-20 plays a game, and 8-12 plays of those you're throwing him into coverage, there's no way you're going to see any meaningful production from him.

Mingo has dropped into coverage 55 times and rushed the QB 37....not exactly an even split, but close(compared to Kruger at least)....

 

I see Kirksey as the guy they are "trying" to get into coverage most....and of course Dansby.....they are the ones staying back and taking the slot/TE most of the snaps.....

 

Looking at the pass rush #'s....Armonty is the most effective, getting to the QB once every 40 rushes....while Kruger gets there once every 110 rushes......(yikes)....

 

So....In my world, Farmer hasnt even come close to giving Pettine what he needs in terms of OLB's....and the ones we have aren't versatile and cant play multiple roles(which is something good LB's can do)......

[darren15]

Well Pettine's motto has always been play like a Brown

 

 

Well witnessing crap year after year they certainly are living up to the play like a Brown slogan this season .......

[Babernakle]

You can't get rid of pettine the oc anyone but farmer, farmer ran shannahan off. It's the same story we have no stability were don't need coaches we need fucking players heathly ones would be great the biggest thing of all is we have to pick a fucking qb keep him healthy and leave him alone good or bad

[The Cysko Kid]

Both Mike Pettine and Ray Farmer are hot garbage.

[Flugel]

Pettine, Putin or Kojak - his days are numbered.

 

If he thinks Bademosi is the way to stick it to Gilbert while Pittsburgh can't stop scoring on us via the pass - he'll be back to his high school comfort zone quicker than we can say yippee. Bademosi is the equivalent of a hockey team losing a man to a penalty and playing man down. He's terrible.

 

If he wants out this bad he just quit rather than sabotage our fan base. What a jerk!

 

Folks, when Marvin Lewis is saying we gotta keep this QB in the pocket and then Pettine says it - I was hoping the idiot wasn't our Head Coach but I'm a Browns' fan so guess what? I got my id ten 10 form which looks like this in caps ID10T.

[hoorta]

Pettine, Putin or Kojak - his days are numbered.

 

If he thinks Bademosi is the way to stick it to Gilbert while Pittsburgh can't stop scoring on us via the pass - he'll be back to his high school comfort zone quicker than we can say yippee. Bademosi is the equivalent of a hockey team losing a man to a penalty and playing man down. He's terrible.

 

If he wants out this bad he just quit rather than sabotage our fan base. What a jerk!

 

Folks, when Marvin Lewis is saying we gotta keep this QB in the pocket and then Pettine says it - I was hoping the idiot wasn't our Head Coach but I'm a Browns' fan so guess what? I got my id ten 10 form which looks like this in caps ID10T.

 

Thanks for noticing that Tom. I sure did. BAD-emosi doesn't have the speed of Gilbert- I'd put my money on Justin to beat him by 10 yards in a 100. Oh wait- Bryant just did.