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Ghoolie Verses Hoorta - The stage is set


Ghoolie

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OK Larry, unless I am mistaken, this should be a great year for us to once again reprise the are OL fatasses a dime-a-dozen, or are they hard-to-come-by athletes who determine if a QB is successful or not?

 

FIRST

 

If I understand you correctly, your feelings are that with the loss of veteran Linemen, the Bengals offense, especially Andy Dalton is going to suffer, and be far less effective. I honestly don't follow OL at all. I seriously have ADD on this topic based on my knowledge that the individual players are all interchangeable.

 

Fun thing to watch #1 - I believe the Bengals will have a more explosive offense in 2017 than they did in 2016, and may be unstoppable. They added pizazz at RB and WR, which are far, far more important than some 300 pound, clumsy fatasses.

 

However.........if OL men are as important as you say, then the Bengals O should struggle.

 

 

SECONDLY

 

According to most here the Browns have assembled a great OL, and by your philosophy should translate into a remarkably better offense. This end of it is a little harder to quantify because we probably will have a better starter in Ass-Oiler than we did with RG3 and Kessler. Kizer potentially coming in has a tremendous upside, so the Browns OL performance may have very little to do with an improved offense by way of a better QB.

 

This is the hard thing about football analyses. There are too man variables sometime to really get a cause-and-effect picture. I think in Cincy though, you are out on a limb. They lost integral OL, and by your measure the offense is going to struggle. I don't believe they will miss the fatasses, and I think their O will be improved.

 

Let's see who is right.

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I hope I am allowed to chime in.

 

A bad OL can hurt the performance of an offense and a QB. A good OL can help an offense and a QB. But a good OL won't make a bad QB into a good QB. It might improve/help some...but it can't find receivers and make accurate throws....no matter how well they perform.

A bad OL can make a good QB mediocre. Even Tom Brady has had issues where he has had pressure right in his face. As the saying goes, you can't complete a pass from your back. Of course, good/great QBs can help overcome a bad OL. By movement, by quick throws. BR in Pitt has had some poor OLs...and has been able to overcome them fairly well by his ability to move in the pocket. His OL now is much better than it has been in some recent past years.

 

In Cinci...you do not have a great QB. Dalton is good...leaning to mediocre. I do not think he will overcome what portends to be a bad OL in Cinci. He is no Brady or BR. He is...OK. The running game behind him....they have a decent stable of RBs (but I say they are about on par with the Browns in RB talent...but they thought they needed help...otherwise why draft Mixon in round 2?), won't have the same opportunities behind a poor OL. Their receivers...AJ Green obviously is superior...and I don't know what else they have that you say is so new and improved. (Joe Ross maybe)? They very well may be hampered....because the QB will be hampered.

For the Browns....a superior OL won't turn Kessler or B.O....or Kizer...into BR or Brady, if they don't have that in them. It won't make a middling group of receivers...if they can't get open, any better. Though...it may give them more time to create gaps between them and the defenders.

More likely the Browns run game will be far more improved than the pass game. A better OL creates better runners. And decent/good runners as the Browns have should be able to make hay with this OL...assuming IT is as good as advertised.

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OK Larry, unless I am mistaken, this should be a great year for us to once again reprise the are OL fatasses a dime-a-dozen, or are they hard-to-come-by athletes who determine if a QB is successful or not?

 

FIRST

 

If I understand you correctly, your feelings are that with the loss of veteran Linemen, the Bengals offense, especially Andy Dalton is going to suffer, and be far less effective. I honestly don't follow OL at all. I seriously have ADD on this topic based on my knowledge that the individual players are all interchangeable.

 

Fun thing to watch #1 - I believe the Bengals will have a more explosive offense in 2017 than they did in 2016, and may be unstoppable. They added pizazz at RB and WR, which are far, far more important than some 300 pound, clumsy fatasses.

 

However.........if OL men are as important as you say, then the Bengals O should struggle.

 

SECONDLY

 

According to most here the Browns have assembled a great OL, and by your philosophy should translate into a remarkably better offense. This end of it is a little harder to quantify because we probably will have a better starter in Ass-Oiler than we did with RG3 and Kessler. Kizer potentially coming in has a tremendous upside, so the Browns OL performance may have very little to do with an improved offense by way of a better QB.

 

This is the hard thing about football analyses. There are too man variables sometime to really get a cause-and-effect picture. I think in Cincy though, you are out on a limb. They lost integral OL, and by your measure the offense is going to struggle. I don't believe they will miss the fatasses, and I think their O will be improved.

 

Let's see who is right.

 

Remember my saying- the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Why bother seeing if you can beat Joe Thomas- when you have the human Turnstile Cam Erving playing center? Bitonio getting hurt last year didn't help either. You remember Kevin Mack running into the back of the stone wall of his offensive line because they couldn't move anyone out of the way? I do. They might be interchangeable fatasses to you- but it does require a certain level of talent to play the position. BTW, I still think the Browns offense is gonna suck, and I'm nowhere near confident Kizer is the answer at qb.

 

Now on to dem Bungles. (Don't forget I live in Bungle-land, and I get force fed their propaganda daily.) I agree with Gipper- Dalton is an average qb- with a stellar supporting cast. Ha- there's even Bunglites that want to ship Dalton out of town and start AJ McCarron. They've pinned the choker label on him. AJ Green makes Andy look good. Eifert- their TE- getting hurt is a big reason they went 6-9 last year.

 

OL? Swiss cheese Tom. Either all rookies, backups, or too old. Dalton's putting up a brave front- but when your best OL is the seriously under performing Cedric Ogbuehi, you got problems.

 

As to the talent they added, we'll see if Mixon can stay out of trouble, and Ross can stay healthy. He might be the fastest guy in the NFL- but it takes more than running fly patterns to be a decent NFL wr. As was brought up in another thread- if speed was all it took, Reinaldo Nehemiah would be in the HOF.

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Lets not forget.. Tretter only has 10 games played at the NFL level and has a history of injuries.. So.. I'm not getting gung ho on our Oline just yet.

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Lets not forget.. Tretter only has 10 games played at the NFL level and has a history of injuries.. So.. I'm not getting gung ho on our Oline just yet.

The concern is legit. But he has 10 games started.....he has played in 31 games. Still, that means he has missed 17 full games in 3 years. (Played in 31 out of 48...played in all 16 in 2015....but only 7 games last year being hurt.

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The Stage is set? Hell I hope you bring enough light bulbs to keep score..2016 OL stats with TE's included..Allowed 140 QB hits..66 Sacks..14 Holding Calls..14 False Starts..3 ineligible downfield..3 Illegal Formations..And of course are Cam favorite 1 Face mask & 1 DQ..Here's the good news, Hue admits he did not try to run the Rock Enough..Well damn I guess so :huh:..Fool me once.. but with Hoorta's Jimmy Money on that new OL..Come on Snake Eyes!! Dear God get us all to week 1 alive & not on any Injury Reports :lol:..Amen..

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A suitably subjectively stated challenge...

  • For h to "win" the Bengals' O has to be "far less effective" while the Browns' O has to be "remarkably improved" with the QB contribution discount TBD.
  • For Phoolie to claim victory Cinci simply needs to be "more explosive" than its 2016 achievements of 24th place in points scored and 13th place in yards.

 

 

Seems fair... /s

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So, regardless of your take, the situation in Cinci will shed quite a bit on this OL versus skilled player debate.

 

As I have stated, I believe the Cinci O will be better this year than last year. I don't believe that the fatasses they lost are any different than the fatasses who will take their place.

 

As for the OL opening holes, this is largely a misnomer. It is the QB and WR TE and RB along with play calling that opens holes. I don't care who the 5 OL are, if the D knows what is coming, if the D does not have to bite on play action or worry about deep balls, they camp out. And again, no 5 offensive linemen can block 8 defensive players.

 

It is the defense feeling the pressure of many offensive weapons that gives an OL it's edge and wears down the opposing defense. I promise you, there is negligible difference between their 320 fat ass and ours. A fatass is a fatass is a fatass. Offensive linemen are fat asses. From pee-pee football they are segregated as the group who can't pass, catch, run, punt, kick, tackle or cover. Slow blobs become OL. There is little skill level here.

 

All I am saying is that if you OL pimps are correct, The Bengal offense should suck this year. If Ghoolie is right, which I usually am, the Bengals will shred the scoreboard this season. If they do, a lot of "TBB experts" are going to be scratching their asses wondering how Ghoolie could have called this right.

 

Finally, the Browns offense is too full of variables to predict. The OL has little to do with it. If Kizer turns out to be the next Joe Namath, we could pick 5 members here to play OL and it won't matter. In any case, this will be fun to watch.

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A suitably subjectively stated challenge...

  • For h to "win" the Bengals' O has to be "far less effective" while the Browns' O has to be "remarkably improved" with the QB contribution discount TBD.
  • For Phoolie to claim victory Cinci simply needs to be "more explosive" than its 2016 achievements of 24th place in points scored and 13th place in yards.

 

 

Seems fair... /s

That is exactly my thinking as well.

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The Stage is set? Hell I hope you bring enough light bulbs to keep score..2016 OL stats with TE's included..Allowed 140 QB hits..66 Sacks..14 Holding Calls..14 False Starts..3 ineligible downfield..3 Illegal Formations..And of course are Cam favorite 1 Face mask & 1 DQ..Here's the good news, Hue admits he did not try to run the Rock Enough..Well damn I guess so :huh:..Fool me once.. but with Hoorta's Jimmy Money on that new OL..Come on Snake Eyes!! Dear God get us all to week 1 alive & not on any Injury Reports :lol:..Amen..

 

This is my dude right here....

 

Awesome post.

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So, regardless of your take, the situation in Cinci will shed quite a bit on this OL versus skilled player debate.

 

I don't know if that is true. Too many variables involved to make any definitive conclusion.

 

As I have stated, I believe the Cinci O will be better this year than last year. I don't believe that the fatasses they lost are any different than the fatasses who will take their place.

 

As for the OL opening holes, this is largely a misnomer. It is the QB and WR TE and RB along with play calling that opens holes. I don't care who the 5 OL are, if the D knows what is coming, if the D does not have to bite on play action or worry about deep balls, they camp out. And again, no 5 offensive linemen can block 8 defensive players.

Have you really never watched Cam Erving play? He alone basically messed up our entire OL.

 

It is the defense feeling the pressure of many offensive weapons that gives an OL it's edge and wears down the opposing defense. I promise you, there is negligible difference between their 320 fat ass and ours. A fatass is a fatass is a fatass. Offensive linemen are fat asses. From pee-pee football they are segregated as the group who can't pass, catch, run, punt, kick, tackle or cover. Slow blobs become OL. There is little skill level here.

 

All I am saying is that if you OL pimps are correct, The Bengal offense should suck this year. If Ghoolie is right, which I usually am, the Bengals will shred the scoreboard this season. If they do, a lot of "TBB experts" are going to be scratching their asses wondering how Ghoolie could have called this right.

One problem with your position is that you think that the Bengals skill players are all that......and them may NOT be all that.

So...in a sense...a decline in the Bengals offensive production could, in theory, have NOTHING to do with how well the Bengals OL performs....it could have more to do with how poorly the Bengals skill players perform. Do they have decent players? Yes. But a mediocre QB can sabotage an entire offense. You know that.

 

Finally, the Browns offense is too full of variables to predict.

Now THAT you certainly got right.

 

The OL has little to do with it. If Kizer turns out to be the next Joe Namath, we could pick 5 members here to play OL and it won't matter. In any case, this will be fun to watch.

Just make sure the 5 members here are fatasses.

I understand you have lost like 60 some pounds. So have I. Are we both under 250? I am....are you. If so, neither of us qualify.

 

OK...truth telling time: who out there is pushing close to 300 pounds? Not I, no more.

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So, regardless of your take, the situation in Cinci will shed quite a bit on this OL versus skilled player debate.

 

I don't know if that is true. Too many variables involved to make any definitive conclusion.

 

As I have stated, I believe the Cinci O will be better this year than last year. I don't believe that the fatasses they lost are any different than the fatasses who will take their place.

 

As for the OL opening holes, this is largely a misnomer. It is the QB and WR TE and RB along with play calling that opens holes. I don't care who the 5 OL are, if the D knows what is coming, if the D does not have to bite on play action or worry about deep balls, they camp out. And again, no 5 offensive linemen can block 8 defensive players.

Have you really never watched Cam Erving play? He alone basically messed up our entire OL.

 

It is the defense feeling the pressure of many offensive weapons that gives an OL it's edge and wears down the opposing defense. I promise you, there is negligible difference between their 320 fat ass and ours. A fatass is a fatass is a fatass. Offensive linemen are fat asses. From pee-pee football they are segregated as the group who can't pass, catch, run, punt, kick, tackle or cover. Slow blobs become OL. There is little skill level here.

 

All I am saying is that if you OL pimps are correct, The Bengal offense should suck this year. If Ghoolie is right, which I usually am, the Bengals will shred the scoreboard this season. If they do, a lot of "TBB experts" are going to be scratching their asses wondering how Ghoolie could have called this right.

One problem with your position is that you think that the Bengals skill players are all that......and them may NOT be all that.

So...in a sense...a decline in the Bengals offensive production could, in theory, have NOTHING to do with how well the Bengals OL performs....it could have more to do with how poorly the Bengals skill players perform. Do they have decent players? Yes. But a mediocre QB can sabotage an entire offense. You know that.

 

Finally, the Browns offense is too full of variables to predict.

Now THAT you certainly got right.

 

The OL has little to do with it. If Kizer turns out to be the next Joe Namath, we could pick 5 members here to play OL and it won't matter. In any case, this will be fun to watch.

Just make sure the 5 members here are fatasses.

I understand you have lost like 60 some pounds. So have I. Are we both under 250? I am....are you. If so, neither of us qualify.

 

OK...truth telling time: who out there is pushing close to 300 pounds? Not I, no more.

 

I am likely thicker than you from a musculo-skeletal perspective. In college, at 6' 2: and a 34" waist, and I weighed 235. Where did that time and place go? Conversely, I had a 38" waist and a flat stomach when I played guitar with WSS at Put in Bay. I was 255 then. (Photo Attached) I don't lift much any more, other than keeping my bench and overhead press oiled. 250 for me would be a lot more lean than 250 for you. I am shooting for 215. If I can get there I'll show signs of a six pack, or wind up dead. We will see.

 

Regarding the Bengals, I think maybe you missed my prediction? I am predicting that they will be better and that the so called great fatasses they lost, won't affect them at all. I see their offense as being improved becuse they added skilled positions. Those are the ones that matter most.

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OL make the holes for RB to go through. They provide key blocks to help WR make more yards, etc, etc, etc....

Wow ...

 

With your knowledge of the X's and O's of the offensive line I'm completely surprised you haven't received any coaching offers from the Browns.

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I am likely thicker than you from a musculo-skeletal perspective. In college, at 6' 2: and a 34" waist, and I weighed 235. Where did that time and place go? Conversely, I had a 38" waist and a flat stomach when I played guitar with WSS at Put in Bay. I was 255 then. (Photo Attached) I don't lift much any more, other than keeping my bench and overhead press oiled. 250 for me would be a lot more lean than 250 for you. I am shooting for 215. If I can get there I'll show signs of a six pack, or wind up dead. We will see.

I don't know...I too am 6'2. Though I think you may be right....I was never a lifter....so your may have the muscles of a man from Brussells. I don't have that.

 

Regarding the Bengals, I think maybe you missed my prediction? I am predicting that they will be better and that the so called great fatasses they lost, won't affect them at all. I see their offense as being improved becuse they added skilled positions. Those are the ones that matter most.

 

I didn't miss your prediction. I just am not necessarily buying it.

As for the Bengals skill players...I know only that they have ONE guy that is better than what the Browns have: AJ Green. Possibly Dalton is better than the Browns QBs ...but being maybe the 25th best QB in the NFL vs. what may be the 30th-32d best QBs isn't anything to brag much about.

And I know you are wrong about your theory that a poor OL cannot affect the play of a team's skill players. It CAN vastly affect it.

It is why one of the best young QBs out there....Andrew Luck...has had so much trouble these last couple of years. If it can fuck up Luck, and Reggie Wayne and Frank Gore...it can fuck up what the Bengals have.

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I am likely thicker than you from a musculo-skeletal perspective. In college, at 6' 2: and a 34" waist, and I weighed 235. Where did that time and place go? Conversely, I had a 38" waist and a flat stomach when I played guitar with WSS at Put in Bay. I was 255 then. (Photo Attached) I don't lift much any more, other than keeping my bench and overhead press oiled. 250 for me would be a lot more lean than 250 for you. I am shooting for 215. If I can get there I'll show signs of a six pack, or wind up dead. We will see.

I don't know...I too am 6'2. Though I think you may be right....I was never a lifter....so your may have the muscles of a man from Brussells. I don't have that.

 

Regarding the Bengals, I think maybe you missed my prediction? I am predicting that they will be better and that the so called great fatasses they lost, won't affect them at all. I see their offense as being improved becuse they added skilled positions. Those are the ones that matter most.

 

I didn't miss your prediction. I just am not necessarily buying it.

As for the Bengals skill players...I know only that they have ONE guy that is better than what the Browns have: AJ Green. Possibly Dalton is better than the Browns QBs ...but being maybe the 25th best QB in the NFL vs. what may be the 30th-32d best QBs isn't anything to brag much about.

And I know you are wrong about your theory that a poor OL cannot affect the play of a team's skill players. It CAN vastly affect it.

It is why one of the best young QBs out there....Andrew Luck...has had so much trouble these last couple of years. If it can fuck up Luck, and Reggie Wayne and Frank Gore...it can fuck up what the Bengals have.

Exactly Gip. Luck has been out of luck with no o-line. I like to bring up the playoff game where Lawrence Taylor made Joe Montana look like Joe Blow, because his o-line couldn't block for crap. So was Montana a bum? Don't think so.

 

Losing Alex Mack to Atlanta, and replacing him with the to date very bad Cam Erving is a case study where talent at the position DOES matter. Every "expert" was gushing about how Mack solidified and improved the Falcons o-line.

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Exactly Gip. Luck has been out of luck with no o-line. I like to bring up the playoff game where Lawrence Taylor made Joe Montana look like Joe Blow, because his o-line couldn't block for crap. So was Montana a bum? Don't think so.

 

Losing Alex Mack to Atlanta, and replacing him with the to date very bad Cam Erving is a case study where talent at the position DOES matter. Every "expert" was gushing about how Mack solidified and improved the Falcons o-line.

Maybe getting Mack was the move that vaulted them to the SB...and should have won it.

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Wow ...

 

With your knowledge of the X's and O's of the offensive line I'm completely surprised you haven't received any coaching offers from the Browns.

LMAO

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Exactly Gip. Luck has been out of luck with no o-line. I like to bring up the playoff game where Lawrence Taylor made Joe Montana look like Joe Blow, because his o-line couldn't block for crap. So was Montana a bum? Don't think so.

 

Losing Alex Mack to Atlanta, and replacing him with the to date very bad Cam Erving is a case study where talent at the position DOES matter. Every "expert" was gushing about how Mack solidified and improved the Falcons o-line.

Hore shit. I told you when he was drafted, he holds on to the fucking ball too long. Luck to Manning was the step down. The OL has nothing to do with it.

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Maybe getting Mack was the move that vaulted them to the SB...and should have won it.

Manning.

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Hore shit. I told you when he was drafted, he holds on to the fucking ball too long. Luck to Manning was the step down. The OL has nothing to do with it.

Well, that is your (wrong) view of things. When he had a decent OL...he made it to the AFC title game. But his OL has deteriorated since then....and as a result he has suffered injuries.

Browns OL got McCown hammered...that is why they had to put in Kessler.

(though RGs injury was of his own making)

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Manning.

 

I hope you meant Manning to Denver. & BTW, Denver's defense won that Super Bowl, not a very washed up Peyton Manning. Von Miller was the MVP of that game IIRC. Even our (now) QB Brock Osweiler won some regular season games that year in Denver when Manning was hurt.

 

Luck did get Indy to the playoffs, but then a couple of the old o-line guys retired, weren't replaced- and Andy started getting hammered because of it. Holds on to the ball too long? Every freaking college scout thought Luck was the best QB prospect in like forever. And Indy thought so much of his talent- they redid his contract to make him the highest paid QB in the NFL- until Derek Carr got that monster deal from the Raiders this year.

 

Finally LOL, Atlanta's QB is "Matty Ice" Ryan- and one of the few things that changed about that team in their SB year was the addition of Alex Mack. I'll let Flugels educate you on the finer points of how some OL are better in certain blocking schemes. Cam Erving has proven he sucks in most every scheme and every O-line position. He's a big fatass turnstile. About as big a bust as Justin Gilbert. If he wasn't a first round pick- he would have been cut already. Defensive game planning is pretty simple- find out where Erving is playing, run by him like he's not even there, and laugh your ass off when he misses trying to block guys on the second level- something Mack excels at. .

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