Camp Ragland

[The Gipper]

This guy seems like he could be The Hammer of the Scots. A potential second coming of Ray Lewis.

 

Here is a fact, the Browns have never really had a great MLB in there history. Some OK, but none great.

Can we get one? Lets Ride the Ragland Road now that we have moved down more to his area.

 

 

 

 

 

[wargograw]

Would like to move down a couple spots but then yes. Hell yes.

[The Gipper]

Would like to move down a couple spots but then yes. Hell yes.

IF he is good enough, why not at 8?

[The Gipper]

The best MLBs the Browns have had in their history were probably the following:

 

Walt Michaels. Played in a few Pro Bowls in the 50s

Galen Fiss. Had I think one PB appearance in the 60s.

Mike Johnson...2 PBs

Pepper Johnson...1PB for the Browns.

Vince Costello/Mike Lucci, also in the 60s. No Pro Bowls, but played fairly well.

 

We have had better OLBs like Jim Houston, Chip Banks, Clay Matthews.

 

But the fact is, the Browns have never had a LB make the HOF....inside or outside.

 

We could use a stud finally, couldn't we?

[bbedward]

Sure, I'm OK with it. Would be great if we can trade down with the Tits and take Ragland.

[calfoxwc]

I was reading up on him. A kickass ilb? I'm good with that.

I still wonder if Dallas takes Bosa, probably just wishful thinking,

and Elliot falls to eight.

 

Camp Ragland is rustic enough to appeal to me.... is it close to great fishing?

[Unsympathetic]

Only if we get another second to move down. Without that additional second [for a total of either 2 this year or 3 next year], no deal.

[LogicIsForSquares]

Would like to move down a couple spots but then yes. Hell yes.

This is my take as well. At 8, Ragland is a little bit of a reach. At 15, I am great with this pick.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Ragland is as much a Lewis as Bosa is a Watt.

 

 

Everybody is "the next somebody" until they aren't. Ragland will be good, but I don't see the sheer physical dominance from him that we saw from Lewis. Nor do I see the same unrelentless motor.

 

Maybe more of a London Fletcher (which is not an insult in the slightest, I love that guy).

[Tour2ma]

A young Fletcher wouldn't suck... and wouldn't suck for a very long time.

 

Ragland helped himself flashing some edge rush at the Sr. Bowl. And not that we couldn't use a run-stuffing ILB, but not seeing the coverage flexibility I'd want to see to take him in the top half of the 1st...

 

Plus there are some promising value picks at ILB on Day 3. I'm growing fond of WVU's Kwiatkoski late... fond enough that I think I can even spell his name correctly now.

[The Gipper]

A young Fletcher wouldn't suck... and wouldn't suck for a very long time.

 

Ragland helped himself flashing some edge rush at the Sr. Bowl. And not that we couldn't use a run-stuffing ILB, but not seeing the coverage flexibility I'd want to see to take him in the top half of the 1st...

 

Plus there are some promising value picks at ILB on Day 3. I'm growing fond of WVU's Kwiatkoski late... fond enough that I think I can even spell his name correctly now.

For a while now I have been looking at Kwiatkowski in the middle rounds. I took him for Bears in the mock draft. If the Browns get him I am AOK with that. While Davis and Kirksey are our starters, Browns need backup there better than Tank Carder.

[Flugel]

A young Fletcher wouldn't suck... and wouldn't suck for a very long time.

 

Ragland helped himself flashing some edge rush at the Sr. Bowl. And not that we couldn't use a run-stuffing ILB, but not seeing the coverage flexibility I'd want to see to take him in the top half of the 1st...

 

Plus there are some promising value picks at ILB on Day 3. I'm growing fond of WVU's Kwiatkoski late... fond enough that I think I can even spell his name correctly now.

 

Alabama had a really stout defensive line against the run in 2015. They were achieving some outrageous results in terms of what they were yielding in yards per carry in 2015 especially down the stretch against high ranked teams. That can make it a lot easier to play LBer than it was in Cleveland in 2015. I'm not trying to say I don't think Ragland is talented but I am saying to beware some degree of false positive here especially if he's being considered as high as #8 overall.

 

Aside from and inclusive of bad tackling, there's 3 things we really sucked at on defense in 2015:

1) Hurrying the passer

2) Stopping the run at the point of attack

3) Covering people

 

If we're going defense at #8 overall, I have to believe we can do better than Ragland.

[The Gipper]

 

Alabama had a really stout defensive line against the run in 2015. They were achieving some outrageous results in terms of what they were yielding in yards per carry in 2015 especially down the stretch against high ranked teams. That can make it a lot easier to play LBer than it was in Cleveland in 2015. I'm not trying to say I don't think Ragland is talented but I am saying to beware some degree of false positive here especially if he's being considered as high as #8 overall.

 

Aside from and inclusive of bad tackling, there's 3 things we really sucked at on defense in 2015:

1) Hurrying the passer

2) Stopping the run at the point of attack

3) Covering people

 

In other words....every aspect of defense?

 

If we're going defense at #8 overall, I have to believe we can do better than Ragland.

Unless, of course he really is the next Ray Lewis...then 8 would be a bargain.

Remember....Ray Lewis was NOT that highly regarded when he came out. He was taken at # 26 overall.

[Tour2ma]

If we're going defense at #8 overall, I have to believe we can do better than Ragland.

 

Agree... no way at 8. At 15? More palletable, but was the unstated pick I was really aiming my questions at.

 

My omission... my bad...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Unless, of course he really is the next Ray Lewis...then 8 would be a bargain.

Remember....Ray Lewis was NOT that highly regarded when he came out. He was taken at # 26 overall.

Your argument for most picks so far has been "what if this guy is the next that guy, wouldn't it be great"?

 

It's great for sentiment but I'd have to hope we're picking players based off any other sort of criteria.

 

What if Jack is the next Lewis? What if Buckner is the next Howie?

[Flugel]

Unless, of course he really is the next Ray Lewis...then 8 would be a bargain.

Remember....Ray Lewis was NOT that highly regarded when he came out. He was taken at # 26 overall.

 

Nor was Jack Lambert that highly regarded coming out so how much do we want to pedestal the cubed root of ignorance about him? It was really creepy how stupid many of the first 25 teams were in the 96 draft regarding Ray Lewis. I'm not buying the theory he just inexplicably woke up a great football player in 1996 all of a sudden. Part of that was the A+ he got on the eye ball test plus earning All American honors as early as his sophomore year continuing on through his junior year. He clearly needed a bigger challenge. The guy is a classic example of why you don't count a 40 time more than instincts and skills jumping out at you on film. Understanding that, this article appears to be a much better indicator of what kind of player he was than the type of criteria that gift wrapped him to our biggest enemy outside of Pittsburgh.

 

As a freshman, he was an immediate contributor and became a starter for the Hurricanes' final five games. He compiled 81 tackles, two sacks, two tackles for loss, and four pass deflections en route to being named to the freshman All-American team.

 

In his sophomore season, Lewis earned first-team All-American and All-Big East honors. Lewis led the Big East with 153 tackles and also contributed nine tackles for a loss, two sacks, and an interception for a Hurricanes team that had the nation's top-ranked defense and finished No. 6 in both the writers' and coaches' polls.^[10]

 

Lewis's junior campaign was even more successful, as he was again named to the All-American^[11] and All-Big East teams, and finished as runner-up for the Butkus Award, given to the top linebacker in college football.^[12] Lewis finished his junior season with 160 tackles, the second highest in University of Miami team history after Ed Weisacosky's 164 in 1965. Lewis also totaled eight tackles for loss, two sacks, two interceptions, a forced fumble, four pass deflections and one touchdown. Against West Virginia University, Lewis contributed 15 tackles. Lewis led the Big East in tackles his last two seasons and accumulated the fifth most in Miami history despite playing only three seasons.

 

After the 1995 season, Lewis decided to forgo his final year of college eligibility and enter the NFL draft.

 

Ragland didn't even start as a freshman or soph so was he ready to come out after his junior year like Lewis? That would have meant his last game playing college football was watching Zeke Elliott look like he was running a 10k with the football all over his defense virtually unchallenged. One of the weaknesses listed for Ragland in 3 different draft sites/magazines is "needs to improve his instincts." That said, he is listed at 6'1" like Lewis was.

[Flugel]

 

Agree... no way at 8. At 15? More palletable, but was the unstated pick I was really aiming my questions at.

 

My omission... my bad...

 

I really liked your point about value picks at ILBer on day 3.

[Canton Mike]

I'll take an instinctive, solid tackler over a "fast 40" any day.

 

Mike

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I'll take an instinctive, solid tackler over a "fast 40" any day.

 

Mike

That's a fair point, but you can usually get an equally instinctive, solid tackler in the third or fourth round. The middle rounds are full of instinctual utility players.

 

The first round isn't where you take a guy just because he's "solid". It's SUPPOSED TO be reserved for gamechanging, impact talent.

 

I like Ragland, he's a good player. But, if I had a choice for the Browns in the first round, I wouldn't take Ragland over Buckner, Bosa or Jack.

 

At 15? Absolutely. At 8? It depends on who's available.

[Canton Mike]

That's a fair point, but you can usually get an equally instinctive, solid tackler in the third or fourth round. The middle rounds are full of instinctual utility players.

 

The first round isn't where you take a guy just because he's "solid". It's SUPPOSED TO be reserved for gamechanging, impact talent.

 

I like Ragland, he's a good player. But, if I had a choice for the Browns in the first round, I wouldn't take Ragland over Buckner, Bosa or Jack.

 

At 15? Absolutely. At 8? It depends on who's available.

 

You're right & I am excited about seeing what we end up with on Friday & Saturday. We are in the position with our #8 pick of getting a true play maker. I just have a gut feeling that our picks will be much better than in recent years.

 

Mike

[Flugel]

I'll take an instinctive, solid tackler over a "fast 40" any day.

 

Mike

 

Remember when we kicked Earnest Byner out of town for the 4.3 forties of Mike Oliphant? Guess what guy would go on to the Pro Bowl and become the workhorse for a Superbowl Championship run? Earnest Saves Christmas Byner - the RB that could only run 4.65 forties. And then there's Emmitt Smith who ran about a 4.65 forty as well with only 3 Superbowl rings and an all time leading rusher crown for as long as that could hold up.

 

Football has always welcomed power, explosion and change of direction and it's rarely played straight ahead for 40 yards out of a sprinter stance by anybody. Now factor in how long the average play from scrimmage lasts for those wanting to emphasize the 40. On defense, I'd rather roll the dice on the ideal first step instinct of a sure tackling Tyler Matakevich in a mid round than go all in on another Bark Mingo that doesn't have a football instinct in him. Anyone ever wonder why Mingo is always victimized by overpursuit hustling back into position? Because he has the instincts of a raccoon crossing the highway at night. I feel bad saying such a thing because I actually LOVE the kid's attitude, hustle and willingness to try to play through shoulder separations/dislocations. Maybe the weight/strength gain will stop making him look like Raggedy Ann against the run. I'm just kidding, he was at least Raggedy Andy. FWIW, I've read James Harrison was already cut 3 times when he was Mingo's age before he went the usual Steeler route conforming to the lyrics "weird science" and "needles and pins." Since then, Harrison's forehead grew another 3-4 inches and his poor wife had to join a battered women's support group. Not to worry, the Pittsburgh Gazette would later portray him as a hero for donating all of the money fans contributed for his headhunting fines to the battered women's support group his wife continued to need. Reading comprehension remains every bit as overrated in Pittsburgh as it once was in Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

I think it was Mike Mayock cautioning people that Antonio Brown only ran a 4.58 when they were talking about the 40 times of this year's WR class at Indy. But guess what Brown does better than most? Change direction - making him no fun to match-up with. At 1 time, Jerry Rice was disappointed to hear his 40 time was inaccurately reported to be in the 4.7s with him countering he never ran over a 4.6. It doesn't matter if he only something like a 4.58 because he changed directions like Antonio Brown does plus he ran ran killer good routes. Film never lies if you watch enough. It'll show the reasons why somebody always separates on the perimeter or gets himself out of position on defense. It'll even show teams that watch film who the GOOD tacklers are and who CANNOT tackle. Who CAN catch and who CANNOT catch. We've had our team back for 17 years and I'm still typing this stuff?

[Flugel]

Flugel, on 23 Apr 2016 - 1:16 PM, said:

 

Alabama had a really stout defensive line against the run in 2015. They were achieving some outrageous results in terms of what they were yielding in yards per carry in 2015 especially down the stretch against high ranked teams. That can make it a lot easier to play LBer than it was in Cleveland in 2015. I'm not trying to say I don't think Ragland is talented but I am saying to beware some degree of false positive here especially if he's being considered as high as #8 overall.

 

Aside from and inclusive of bad tackling, there's 3 things we really sucked at on defense in 2015:

1) Hurrying the passer

2) Stopping the run at the point of attack

3) Covering people

-Flugel

 

In other words....every aspect of defense? - Gipper

 

True, but do you understand why I would list those Gips? What prospect of impact can solve the most of those at #8? If Horton would change us to a 4-3 - I would like the idea of Bosa way better than seeing him at OLB in a 3-4 where he has to THINK about retreating to zone instead of removing all thoughts and delays with sic em from a hand down. I've heard a lot of former DEs turned OLB complain about thinking too much. One of them was a first overall pick of a draft that left Buffalo complaining about thinking interfering with his art of sic em, sock em and sack em. JJ Watt has never been asked to waste time worrying about retreating or back pedaling because the DC he went to never considered handcuffing his strength. THAT would be a way I could really cozy up to Bosa more than I have. I also know how much LeBeau and pupil (Horton) have a comfort zone with 5 techniques with emphasis more on 2 gap than shooting 1 gap upfield to pressure the passer. Whether we would put Bosa as an OLB thinking way more than he's ever had to or asking him to be Brett Keisel - this doesn't look like it welcomes his greatest assets. If we're trying to potty train a puppy for sic em in the dawg pound - do we really want to name him STAY? Sic em STAY! That's sounds confusing but that's what I feel sentencing a guy like Bosa to a 5 technique or OLB worrying about a zone dropback would be like in lieu of setting him free with a hand down on the edge of formation. If Horton would put us in a 4-3 (especially knowing our inventory is already short on LBs) - I could really dig the idea of Bosa joining us. On top of that, this draft is loaded with defensive line talent and if we added a DC that can tailor his defense to the strength of his personnel - this would be a perfect year to go all in on draft day for a 4-3 front.

 

How many of the 3 things I listed could Bosa help if Horton is willing to leave his 3-4 comfort zone? He would hurry passers. Check. Give us better containment off the edge leveraging ball carriers inside toward pursuit to improve us vrs the point of attack. Check. If he's making QBs throw the ball before they want to - he's essentially making it easier for our DBs to cover people. It's also opens up the option to press cover WRs. This would help me check off covering people as well. - Flugel

 

If we're going defense at #8 overall, I have to believe we can do better than Ragland. - Flugel

 

Unless, of course he really is the next Ray Lewis...then 8 would be a bargain.

Remember....Ray Lewis was NOT that highly regarded when he came out. He was taken at # 26 overall.

- Gipper

 

If you watched enough of both guys in college - you could tell a difference. The team that watched film and counted it more than 40 times drafted 2 Hall of Fame players in the first round of 1996. I know you're a trivia buff so you like to clone past examples which doesn't always work in pertinence to the draft. Like the Tedford Qbs were all allegedly products of a system so they were all summed up as draft day no no's. Aaron Rodgers bucked the trend and GB was rewarded for their research as well as the stupidity of all the teams drafting ahead of them in round 1. Before that, BYU QBs were products of the system such as Robbie Boscoe, Marc Wilson and Ty Detmer; but Jim McMahon and Steve Young didn't cooperate with that theory. Or, because the Patriots found Tom Brady unwanted in round 6 - should we expect every draft thereafter to have the same type of QB savior available near the back of round 6? If so, let's take inventory of how many round 6 Qbs since Brady was drafted are frequenting Pro Bowls, Playoffs and Superbowls. That doesn't mean there will never be another - it just means you gotta have the patience of Linus in the Pumpkin Patch to wait that one out. Do we? - Flugel

 

 

[wargograw]

 

Nor was Jack Lambert that highly regarded coming out so how much do we want to pedestal the cubed root of ignorance about him? It was really creepy how stupid many of the first 25 teams were in the 96 draft regarding Ray Lewis. I'm not buying the theory he just inexplicably woke up a great football player in 1996 all of a sudden. Part of that was the A+ he got on the eye ball test plus earning All American honors as early as his sophomore year continuing on through his junior year. He clearly needed a bigger challenge. The guy is a classic example of why you don't count a 40 time more than instincts and skills jumping out at you on film. Understanding that, this article appears to be a much better indicator of what kind of player he was than the type of criteria that gift wrapped him to our biggest enemy outside of Pittsburgh.

 

As a freshman, he was an immediate contributor and became a starter for the Hurricanes' final five games. He compiled 81 tackles, two sacks, two tackles for loss, and four pass deflections en route to being named to the freshman All-American team.

 

In his sophomore season, Lewis earned first-team All-American and All-Big East honors. Lewis led the Big East with 153 tackles and also contributed nine tackles for a loss, two sacks, and an interception for a Hurricanes team that had the nation's top-ranked defense and finished No. 6 in both the writers' and coaches' polls.^[10]

 

Lewis's junior campaign was even more successful, as he was again named to the All-American^[11] and All-Big East teams, and finished as runner-up for the Butkus Award, given to the top linebacker in college football.^[12] Lewis finished his junior season with 160 tackles, the second highest in University of Miami team history after Ed Weisacosky's 164 in 1965. Lewis also totaled eight tackles for loss, two sacks, two interceptions, a forced fumble, four pass deflections and one touchdown. Against West Virginia University, Lewis contributed 15 tackles. Lewis led the Big East in tackles his last two seasons and accumulated the fifth most in Miami history despite playing only three seasons.

 

After the 1995 season, Lewis decided to forgo his final year of college eligibility and enter the NFL draft.

 

Ragland didn't even start as a freshman or soph so was he ready to come out after his junior year like Lewis? That would have meant his last game playing college football was watching Zeke Elliott look like he was running a 10k with the football all over his defense virtually unchallenged. One of the weaknesses listed for Ragland in 3 different draft sites/magazines is "needs to improve his instincts." That said, he is listed at 6'1" like Lewis was.

 

Alabama now has 6 straight #1 ranked recruiting classes. That spans the entire time that Ragland was there. Not starting as an underclassman is not any sort of indictment IMO.

[Flugel]

 

Alabama now has 6 straight #1 ranked recruiting classes. That spans the entire time that Ragland was there. Not starting as an underclassman is not any sort of indictment IMO.

 

It still doesn't make him Ray Lewis. Good football player - yes. Ray Lewis - no. If your eye ball test didn't show you the difference in the 2 players at the college level - there's not enough time to explain it.

[wargograw]

I'm not saying he is. Ray Lewis is in the Hall of Fame. I'm with TCPO on this. The attempts at comparing some of these draftees with generational players is ridiculous.

[Flugel]

I'm not saying he is. Ray Lewis is in the Hall of Fame. I'm with TCPO on this. The attempts at comparing some of these draftees with generational players is ridiculous.

 

Welcome to planet earth McFly!

 

If you read the flow of discussion, you would have understood where the silly comparison started enough to know whom you should have been lecturing on this. But you don't do that. You jump into a back page of a discussion waiting for your first opportunity to defend the SEC.

[wargograw]

I'm not defending the SEC. You will attempt to turn it into that, but that's your doing, not mine. I simply pointed out that it's a bit unfair to criticize Ragland for not starting right away like Lewis did.

[The Gipper]

Your argument for most picks so far has been "what if this guy is the next that guy, wouldn't it be great"?

 

It's great for sentiment but I'd have to hope we're picking players based off any other sort of criteria.

 

What if Jack is the next Lewis? What if Buckner is the next Howie?

Well, that is what fans do. They compare a current guy to a former guy in the hopes that our team is getting someone as good as the former guy.

Its how fans assimilate information about prospects. "X reminds us of Y" or "we hope X can play something like Y"

 

I mean, I guess I could say that as a college player Ragland reminds me of Mike Junkin.....but I doubt that would be complimentory towards Ragland....nor perhaps fair.....nor what we as fans want out of our prospective first round pick.

[The Gipper]

 

Nor was Jack Lambert that highly regarded coming out so how much do we want to pedestal the cubed root of ignorance about him? It was really creepy how stupid many of the first 25 teams were in the 96 draft regarding Ray Lewis. I'm not buying the theory he just inexplicably woke up a great football player in 1996 all of a sudden. Part of that was the A+ he got on the eye ball test plus earning All American honors as early as his sophomore year continuing on through his junior year. He clearly needed a bigger challenge. The guy is a classic example of why you don't count a 40 time more than instincts and skills jumping out at you on film. Understanding that, this article appears to be a much better indicator of what kind of player he was than the type of criteria that gift wrapped him to our biggest enemy outside of Pittsburgh.

 

As a freshman, he was an immediate contributor and became a starter for the Hurricanes' final five games. He compiled 81 tackles, two sacks, two tackles for loss, and four pass deflections en route to being named to the freshman All-American team.

 

In his sophomore season, Lewis earned first-team All-American and All-Big East honors. Lewis led the Big East with 153 tackles and also contributed nine tackles for a loss, two sacks, and an interception for a Hurricanes team that had the nation's top-ranked defense and finished No. 6 in both the writers' and coaches' polls.^[10]

 

Lewis's junior campaign was even more successful, as he was again named to the All-American^[11] and All-Big East teams, and finished as runner-up for the Butkus Award, given to the top linebacker in college football.^[12] Lewis finished his junior season with 160 tackles, the second highest in University of Miami team history after Ed Weisacosky's 164 in 1965. Lewis also totaled eight tackles for loss, two sacks, two interceptions, a forced fumble, four pass deflections and one touchdown. Against West Virginia University, Lewis contributed 15 tackles. Lewis led the Big East in tackles his last two seasons and accumulated the fifth most in Miami history despite playing only three seasons.

 

After the 1995 season, Lewis decided to forgo his final year of college eligibility and enter the NFL draft.

 

Ragland didn't even start as a freshman or soph so was he ready to come out after his junior year like Lewis? That would have meant his last game playing college football was watching Zeke Elliott look like he was running a 10k with the football all over his defense virtually unchallenged. One of the weaknesses listed for Ragland in 3 different draft sites/magazines is "needs to improve his instincts." That said, he is listed at 6'1" like Lewis was.

So, you are saying that Ragland does not have the same kinds of instincts to play MLB like a Lewis...or other great ones had?

OK, I get that (not that that is something that I could personally perceive).

Why then is he considered mid first round material? Was he propped up by the Alabama defensive quality that they have demonstrated over the years.....where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? "He was great in that particular system....but as an individual talent, he is not all that great? Is that what I am hearing?

[The Gipper]

 

It still doesn't make him Ray Lewis. Good football player - yes. Ray Lewis - no. If your eye ball test didn't show you the difference in the 2 players at the college level - there's not enough time to explain it.

Well, we don't have to have him be the next Ray Lewis. Can he be as good as say, former Browns MLB Mike Johnson?

 

As I said earlier, the Browns have never had the great MLB in their history. Not like the Bears or Packers or even Steelers.

Can Ragland be very good if not great?