I know you guys don't like last years draft hindsight threads...

[Clevfan4life]

But this isn't hindsight...I wanted the Browns to take a look at either Chris Borland or Max Bullough as late round run stopping steals. I think Bullough went undrafted and signed with the Texans, so he hasn't gotten playing time. But we all can see what Borland is doing in SF. Watching that game tonight between SF and Seattle...the 9'ers defense was on the field the whole game, Kaepernick is pure tripe as an NFL QB. Go listen to ur headphones Colin. It wasn't until the 2nd half that they started to lose containment against Lynch who is obviously a top 3 NFL RB. Borland was all over him the 1st half, Lynch got his in the 2nd half as everybody was wearing down but Borland dug deep late in the 4th and made a couple nice plays solo on Lynch.

 

The play that stuck out to me the most was in the 1st half where Borland just utterly sniffed one of the lanes and "shot" into the backfield like he was sprung from a cannon. I haven't seen any of our starting LB'ers make that kind of a play all season. The closest play we came to something like that was a play Robertson made last week when he sniffed out a sweep and actually made the play behind the line of scrimmage. This is a rookie though in Borland, and I watched him put himself play after play in the right position where he had a chance to make the tackle at the point...and not constantly chasing after the run like it seems all of our tackles are. Yeah he got broke off by Lynch on one big run, but given the way that game was going if it weren't for Borland Lynch would have had 200 yds tonight.

 

So, the point of this thread is why did we pass on him? He went to SF like 6 picks after we took Kirksey. Now mind you I'm not completely dogging Kirksey, he may turn out all right...we've seen some decent stuff from him. But if I heard right, tonight the announcers said he wsa coming into the game with some 60 or 70 tackles...kidding me? He didn't start till week 7, that's absurd. Kirk I think has somewhere around 50 tackles and he's been starting the whole season.

 

And you can't really say all of it is on his front line guys. Yeah Justin Smith is a beast, probably still the 2nd best 5 tech in the NFL next to Watt but he's probably one of the few if not the only 5 tech stronger than Watt. But that front line has been dinged up as much as our hasn't it? Didn't they lose their NT and that other guy who slapped his woman? And Aldon just came back like a week ago right? So basically those backup LB'ers for the 9'ers have kept their season respectable. So TL;DR we should have drafted Chris Borland. Again not to shit on Kirksey but Borland and Bullough were the best LB'ers in the big 10. I had never heard of any good LB'er prospect from Iowa coming out last year.

[hoorta]

Nah- good points but you can drive yourself crazy looking in the rearview mirror. Kirksey has played above what you'd expect out of a third round pick. Or want to bash on David Veikune, Kaluka Maiava, and Beau Bell?

 

Other than Manziel- I would have taken Carr instead, Damn little to fault in Farmer's first draft. And he hit it out of the park in his FA pickups. Gabriel, Crowell, and Williams. Getting Whither was a wash losing Ward, and Dansby is an upgrade over Jackson.

[gftChris]

You can't hit on them all, and I'm sure there are some picks that the 49ers wish they had again. We've got Kirksey who is basically looking like a solid 3rd round pick, so I'm fine with that. Outside of the first round, farmer has done a basically perfect job, bringing in: Bitonio, Kirksey, West, Crowell, Gabriel & Williams as either starters or solid contributors. Gilbert and Manziel have been talked to death, but I think at least one will come out ok. Don't forget Desir as well, a long-term project we basically haven't seen that lots of people here were hoping we'd land.

 

So yeah, it would have been nice, but we didn't do too shabbily.

[LondonBrown]

Farmer did great

[upper lip]

7-4 and trending up and still constant bitching on here...

[Browns149]

7-4 and trending up and still constant bitching on here...

Why did we pass on Tom Brady for 6 rounds in 2000?

[JohnnyFootfungus]

Why did we pass on Tom Brady for 6 rounds in 2000?

Looking back on Bills drafts always pisses me off. Even two years ago when we moved up 2 spots to take TJ Graham and the Colts took TY Hilton two picks after. WTF??

[miktoxic]

Looking back on Bills drafts always pisses me off. Even two years ago when we moved up 2 spots to take TJ Graham and the Colts took TY Hilton two picks after. WTF??

 

that draft with RG3 has to be the worse in recent history. we

 

the browns took trent richard and weeden with their 1 and 2 with really good players right there surrounding them. i know i was dumbfounded but the browns had yet to figure it out.

 

i think farmer has a nose for talent evaluation and i'm very pleased with what he's done so far. i think if this team were not to have been decimated with injuries like they have been we'd be in a serious discussion right now for going deep into the playoffs.

 

i know there's a handful of games left and who knows whay could happen or how far this team can go but i can't wait until next year's draft.

[calfoxwc]

Different defense, different philosophies, different

players around them, different divisions, different offenses played,

etc.

 

please. Stop it. Kirksey is terrific, Farmer did excellent.

 

Yes, it is stupid hindsight.

[Manzier]

 

So, the point of this thread is why did we pass on him? He went to SF like 6 picks after we took Kirksey. Now mind you I'm not completely dogging Kirksey, he may turn out all right...we've seen some decent stuff from him. But if I heard right, tonight the announcers said he wsa coming into the game with some 60 or 70 tackles...kidding me? He didn't start till week 7, that's absurd. Kirk I think has somewhere around 50 tackles and he's been starting the whole season.

 

 

I think the big knock on Borland was that he isnt strong in coverage and is too short. A lot of teams passed on him, solely due to his size, which makes him a more one dimensional backer than most. Pettine(and the Browns) have said they prefer the taller cover type LB's for this defense, as well as LB's that can rotate position..

 

I know you like run stoppers, but I think it's all trade offs. Run stoppers get burned on pass routes. Coverage backs are slower to stop the run.

 

I would add that Kirksey has not been starting all season. Just for 2 weeks(since Dansby went down)

[Zombo]

I think the big knock on Borland was that he isnt strong in coverage and is too short. A lot of teams passed on him, solely due to his size, which makes him a more one dimensional backer than most. Pettine(and the Browns) have said they prefer the taller cover type LB's for this defense, as well as LB's that can rotate position..

 

I know you like run stoppers, but I think it's all trade offs. Run stoppers get burned on pass routes. Coverage backs are slower to stop the run.

 

I would add that Kirksey has not been starting all season. Just for 2 weeks(since Dansby went down)

 

Kirks and Robby have rotated starts depending on if we were in pass defense or run defense:

 

GameOpp. RE NT LE OLB MIKE WILL OLB RCB LCB FS SS

9/7 at Pit-L Winn Rubin P. Taylor Kruger Dansby Robertson Mingo Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

9/14 NO-W A. Bryant (DL) D. Bryant (DL) Gilbert (DB) Kruger Dansby Kirksey Sheard Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

9/21 BAL-L D. Bryant Rubin P. Taylor Kruger Dansby Robertson Mingo Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

10/5 at Ten-W D. Bryant Rubin P. Taylor Kruger Dansby Robertson Mingo Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

10/12 PIT-W D. Bryant (DL) A. Bryant (DL) Williams (DB) Kruger Dansby Kirksey Sheard Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

10/19 at Jax-L D. Bryant (DL) J. Hughes (DL) Gilbert (DB) Kruger Dansby Kirksey Sheard Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

10/26 OAK-W D. Bryant Rubin Hughes Kruger Dansby Robertson Mingo Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

11/2 TB-W D. Bryant Rubin Winn Martin Dansby Williams (DB) Mingo Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

11/6 at Cin-W D. Bryant Rubin P. Taylor Kruger Dansby Robertson Sheard Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

11/16 HOU-L D. Bryant (DL)B. Winn (DL) Williams (DB) Kruger Dansby Kirksey Mingo Skrine Haden Gipson Whitner

[JohnnyFootfungus]

 

that draft with RG3 has to be the worse in recent history. we

 

the browns took trent richard and weeden with their 1 and 2 with really good players right there surrounding them. i know i was dumbfounded but the browns had yet to figure it out.

 

i think farmer has a nose for talent evaluation and i'm very pleased with what he's done so far. i think if this team were not to have been decimated with injuries like they have been we'd be in a serious discussion right now for going deep into the playoffs.

 

i know there's a handful of games left and who knows whay could happen or how far this team can go but i can't wait until next year's draft.

You guys are gonna love the draft next year with our 1st round pick. I like Sammy Watkins a lot...we'll see if he was worth it depending upon who you guys select at our spot.

[Tour2ma]

But this isn't hindsight...I wanted the Browns to take a look at... Chris Borland... as late round run stopping steals.

As you point out later in your OP, Borland did not last until the "late round(s)"... so there's that.

 

I loved Borland's motor. I wanted to see him as a Brown, but I never saw him as a 3rd round "steal".

 

 

That said, coming away from 2014 essentially drafting only the first two days is hard to understand. Especially when you look at our lack of O-line depth.

 

Buffalo nabbed one of my top sleepers when they nabbed Seantrel Henderson in the 7th round... and he is not only starting for them, but also playing quite well.

 

We all have our sleeper stories. We all tell the good ones at the drop of a hat. But for every good one we have one siting on a couch at home... maybe still waiting for a call.

 

Hey! Tyler Larsen! What are you up to?

 

 

Time to let them go... let them all go...

[Clevfan4life]

Different defense, different philosophies, different

players around them, different divisions, different offenses played,

etc.

 

please. Stop it. Kirksey is terrific, Farmer did excellent.

 

Yes, it is stupid hindsight.

 

Kirkseys' been "terrific"? you're kidding right? You do see how bad our run defense is right? He's not the sole reason our run defense sucks, for sure. Dansby sucks too. All of our ILB'ers have let us the fuck down the whole season. If they were even middle of the road run stoppers we'd have won "at least" two more games and the division would be handily ours. That's not wild conjecture either. There's been "at least" two games where if we hadn't let some no name run for 100-150 yds we probably win that game. Two extra wins is conservative estimation. Kirksey has looked good at times this year and also looked really really bad along with the other LB'ers. Borlands nose for the gaps was on full display last night and at least for one half...he went 1v1 with someone that could be argued as the most physically gifted RB in the NFL right now. He got the better of Lynch for 1 half. What some of you also may not have seen is how deep they drop Borland into coverage...he's not a 1 dimensional run stopper. They ask that guy to run mad distances all over the field.They use him in coverage every bit as much as we use our guys.

[Clevfan4life]

I think the big knock on Borland was that he isnt strong in coverage and is too short. A lot of teams passed on him, solely due to his size, which makes him a more one dimensional backer than most. Pettine(and the Browns) have said they prefer the taller cover type LB's for this defense, as well as LB's that can rotate position..

 

I know you like run stoppers, but I think it's all trade offs. Run stoppers get burned on pass routes. Coverage backs are slower to stop the run.

 

I would add that Kirksey has not been starting all season. Just for 2 weeks(since Dansby went down)

 

I realize what the "knock" on some of these guys are, what I'm lamenting is that we didn't see through that BS like SF did. He looks like fast as fuck on the field and SF drops him way back into coverage. What I don't understand is what is Pettine's scheme doing so differently from SF's that Borland wouldn't have fitted with us? They do the same shit with their front 7 that we do....secondary wise though I don't know, and that's the only place where there was a chance of Borland being a misfit for us. I guess they expected Dansby to be a run stuffing beast and wanted to draft some super cover guy. Neither of which has really panned out.

[Clevfan4life]

7-4 and trending up and still constant bitching on here...

 

so you've been satisfied with our defensive output then eh? know football much? cause at our current "trend" this team will lose badly in the 1st round if we even win our division. Beating Atlanta, again one of the worst teams in the NFL, by two points is not some stratospheric upward trend. Ok. Let's calm our titties down.

[The Gipper]

In the 2000 draft, 15 of the 31 first round picks made the Pro Bowl some time in their career. Courtney Brown was not one of them. I wish we had taken any one of those 15.

Brian Urlacher, John Abraham, Shaun Alexander all would have looked nice.

 

Second guessing is a beautiful thing.

[Clevfan4life]

In the 2000 draft, 15 of the 31 first round picks made the Pro Bowl some time in their career. Courtney Brown was not one of them. I wish we had taken any one of those 15.

Brian Urlacher, John Abraham, Shaun Alexander all would have looked nice.

 

Second guessing is a beautiful thing.

 

but this isn't the same as say the debate over whether we should have stayed at 4 and taken someone like Watkins. We're talking about the yeoman picks later on in the draft where you absolutely cannot pass on guys like Borland if they're still there. I stated in a previous thread that because of our situation at WR Watkins was a no brainer...but in retrospect, with all the other top talent around that early in the draft, it's not as no brainer as taking a guy like Borland in the 3d round who was one of the best LB'ers in the country at a position we were as needy at as WR. Perhaps even more needier at LB'er than at WR given that the ILB'ers are the QB's of the defense. I feel like we took yet another gamble on a relative no name instead of another sound fundamentals type guy. In my case at least I'm not second guessing cause I plainly stated my confusion during the draft on why we passed on those two big 10 studs.

 

But doesn't it give anybody concern that not only do we seem to miss on 1st rounders, we're also whiffing badly on the late rounders that other teams seem to pick up and turn into pro bowlers. Steelers anyone? Why can't we learn from them on how they draft?

 

[miktoxic]

i saw borland yesterday flying around. he's fast but i wouldn't call him dominate by any means. he is a sure tackler though.

 

friggin what happened to the 49ers? harbaugh and the team look like they just quit. guess he's getting ready to head to ann arbor and already has his bags packed.

 

and yes, biting off that other thread kaepernik looks average when he's not running.

[JohnnyFootfungus]

 

but this isn't the same as say the debate over whether we should have stayed at 4 and taken someone like Watkins. We're talking about the yeoman picks later on in the draft where you absolutely cannot pass on guys like Borland if they're still there. I stated in a previous thread that because of our situation at WR Watkins was a no brainer...but in retrospect, with all the other top talent around that early in the draft, it's not as no brainer as taking a guy like Borland in the 3d round who was one of the best LB'ers in the country at a position we were as needy at as WR. Perhaps even more needier at LB'er than at WR given that the ILB'ers are the QB's of the defense. I feel like we took yet another gamble on a relative no name instead of another sound fundamentals type guy. In my case at least I'm not second guessing cause I plainly stated my confusion during the draft on why we passed on those two big 10 studs.

 

But doesn't it give anybody concern that not only do we seem to miss on 1st rounders, we're also whiffing badly on the late rounders that other teams seem to pick up and turn into pro bowlers. Steelers anyone? Why can't we learn from them on how they draft?

 

Don't sweat it. Buffalo drafted Kiko Alonso in 2nd round two years ago...then we pick Cyrus Kuonjo in 2nd this year who has played one game (potential bust) but we picked Seantrel Henderson in Round 7 and he has started at RT all year. Every team finds some gems but also whiffs on rounds 1-4 from time to time.

[Suomi]

The Browns are 7-4 and still in the playoff discussion.

 

Borland's 49ers are being shown the door.

 

Stop your whining. Apparently you don't know how to enjoy success.

 

GO BROWNS!!!

[Tour2ma]

... we picked Seantrel Henderson in Round 7 and he has started at RT all year. Every team finds some gems but also whiffs on rounds 1-4 from time to time.

Our real issue (or at least mine) is we did not even play day 3. What Day 3 picks we did not deal away maneuvering Day 1, we traded away later. Missed some good, cheap value in a very deep draft.

 

Everyone knew Seantrel's talent. Everyone knew he'd been a problem child in Miami. All he needed was a nurturing environment like Buffalo... or Cleveland. Great pick by the Buffalo FO.

[miktoxic]

Everyone knew Seantrel's talent.

 

yeah i think i had him in one of our mock draft threads.

 

you guys do that on the bill's forum? we do draft mocks, the annual w-l record threads before the year and different fantasy games.

 

wonder if we can make a contest out of the W-L record thing?

[Clevfan4life]

i saw borland yesterday flying around. he's fast but i wouldn't call him dominate by any means. he is a sure tackler though.

 

friggin what happened to the 49ers? harbaugh and the team look like they just quit. guess he's getting ready to head to ann arbor and already has his bags packed.

 

and yes, biting off that other thread kaepernik looks average when he's not running.

 

He dominated Lynch in the 1st half when they met 1v1. Didn't blow him out of his socks by any means, nobody's gonna do that...but when Borland met Lynch in the hole there wasn't more than a few more inches of forward progress. And a couple times Borland met him in the backfield and blew the whole play up even if he was helped by other tacklers. There were plenty of 1v1 meetings though to make me go holy shit that rookie is holding his own. Lynch is a vet too remember, Borland is only gonna get stronger and faster. That's kind of scary. For the 9'ers to have that kind of depth now at LB'er is ridiculous. And that Wilhoite (Sp?) on the other side of Borland is no slouch either, but Borland is clearly the main run stopper. And that new kid Aaron Lynch? He's gonna be as good as Aldon at that OLB'er spot. What sucks for the 9'ers is that Harbaugh hitched his wagon to Kaepernick, and I think that's why he's on his way out. They have a limited window with the current defense, although it does look like they're retooling, so I think the owner realizes that the offense is just not gonna run well through Kapernick.

 

And I swear I'm done with the 9'ers if they keep using Hyde as a kick/punt returner. That's your fucking future workhorse wtf are they doing?

[Clevfan4life]

The Browns are 7-4 and still in the playoff discussion.

 

Borland's 49ers are being shown the door.

 

Stop your whining. Apparently you don't know how to enjoy success.

 

GO BROWNS!!!

 

Oh for fuck sake dude I'm enjoying the success we're having. But I'm not gonna back down from commenting on personnel mistakes we're making because this team could be dominating the division if our defense was playing better and more consistent. And no it's not injuries, infact injuries haven't lessened or improved our front 7's performance. Our secondary is the ONLY reason this season is still in play...do you realize that? If not for our secondary we're probably in the basement of the North again. This was a year I feel we could have put a stamp on the North for a couple years to come.

[JohnnyFootfungus]

 

yeah i think i had him in one of our mock draft threads.

 

you guys do that on the bill's forum? we do draft mocks, the annual w-l record threads before the year and different fantasy games.

 

wonder if we can make a contest out of the W-L record thing?

Oh yeah. Guys have all kinds of Mock Draft contests, total offensive yards per game contest, and our offensive coordinator (Hackett) is quite predictable (run, run, pass) so we have a weekly "Guess the first play from scrimmage"...inevitably, 50% of the members guess dive play, up the middle for two yards. It would be fun to link up the two boards somehow for game days or pre-game threads because you guys are a lot like us (not like those knit wits in Bahhhhston or J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets. Ugh.

[calfoxwc]

A. I did not say Kirksey has been terrific, I said he IS terrific. And whining about borland....

 

Really? Have you looked at the 49'ner won loss record? They've lost seven games.

 

Now, how many have the Browns lost?

 

I liked Borland in the draft. But he has little short arms, and injuries. The niners lost to Chicago,

of all teams - gave up 28 pts. Gave up 23 in an Arizona loss, 42 in the first Denver loss, gave up 23 to Baltimore,

and gave up 34 points to Denver in a 34-0 shut-out.

 

And the niners didn't have a brand new defense with new coaches.

 

And Kirksey is terrific. No thanks, I'll keep Kirksey and the Browns 7-4 record.

Kirksey is learning, the whole defense has been learning a new defense.

 

And Kirksey is regarded as terrific by his team.

 

http://www.wkyc.com/story/sports/nfl/browns/2014/08/25/kirksey-impresses-with-play-making-abilities/14590771/

[hoorta]

A. I did not say Kirksey has been terrific, I said he IS terrific. And whining about borland....

 

Really? Have you looked at the 49'ner won loss record? They've lost seven games.

 

Now, how many have the Browns lost?

 

I liked Borland in the draft. But he has little short arms, and injuries. The niners lost to Chicago,

of all teams - gave up 28 pts. Gave up 23 in an Arizona loss, 42 in the first Denver loss, gave up 23 to Baltimore,

and gave up 34 points to Denver in a 34-0 shut-out.

 

And the niners didn't have a brand new defense with new coaches.

 

And Kirksey is terrific. No thanks, I'll keep Kirksey and the Browns 7-4 record.

Kirksey is learning, the whole defense has been learning a new defense.

 

And Kirksey is regarded as terrific by his team.

 

http://www.wkyc.com/story/sports/nfl/browns/2014/08/25/kirksey-impresses-with-play-making-abilities/14590771/

 

Actually Cal the Niners are 7-5. But they will have to jump the 8-4 Lions and Seahawks to make the playoffs, or hope Arizona totally collapses down the stretch. If you look at the Lions schedule they should go 4-1. Ergo, for the Niners to make the playoffs they must beat Seattle, in Seattle. Lotsa luck there.

[Opal312]

Nah- good points but you can drive yourself crazy looking in the rearview mirror. Kirksey has played above what you'd expect out of a third round pick. Or want to bash on David Veikune, Kaluka Maiava, and Beau Bell?

 

Other than Manziel- I would have taken Carr instead, Damn little to fault in Farmer's first draft. And he hit it out of the park in his FA pickups. Gabriel, Crowell, and Williams. Getting Whither was a wash losing Ward, and Dansby is an upgrade over Jackson.

In the weeks before the draft I was dead sure they'd take Khalil Mack or Evans at #4 and Derek Carr at 26. I was stunned and still am with The trade with Buffalo and then Gilbert in the first round. Not to mention Manziel. So here we are watching the likes of Evans, Watkins, Odell Beckham, Martavis Bryant, Jordan Mathews etc and they're calling it the best wide out class ever. Farmer knew Gordon was going to be suspended and acted like a stubborn child. And why Manziel? A college freshman sensation who's liable to end up another Tebow. We sure will never know cuz there's no way he's a Brown next year.

[calfoxwc]

Actually Cal the Niners are 7-5 Mr. Hoorta

*************************************************

Now, don't stop me, I was on a roll... the site I was at,

had the preseason games listed after the regular season.

 

I was tired. Had to stoke the fireplace...needed a rootbeer.

 

Outside of that, though, the Browns are doing fine with a 7-4 record,

and I don't see the big deal with nitpicking on the draft.

 

I don't know the niners' defensive scheme, and there are all sorts of factors

to comparisons. Kirksey plays sideliine to sideline - and it's a new defense.

 

All of our mock drafts are wrong. I don't get complaining unless a Browns draftee

sucks. And that is far from the situation. At least maybe wait til after the season?