Browns lose Desmond Bryant for the season

[The Gipper]

Opportunity... smoportunity...

 

Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs...

 

But then there is always the waiver wire...

 

 

 

Yup... and most, if not all, of Gip's original list were 4-3 DEs. IIRC only Bruce Smith was a 3-4 guy.

I don't care if a guy was a 4-3 or a 3-4.......It is still a primary requisite of that DE to rush on a passing play. While they may do it at times they are NOT supposed to be merely block gobblers. Are the OLBs also...and perhaps expected to get free-er more often on pass rushing? Certainly.

But if block gobbling and run protection is all you wanted out of a DE....you wouldn't use a DE....you would use 3 Nose Tackles in a 3-4.

I don't know, maybe the Browns should try that.

I also don't think Smith was the only 3-4 guy. Jared Allen, Jason Taylor, I think both played more in the 3-4.

Freeney and Mathis? I don't know what that team played.

 

And here is the other point....it seems that many people are interchangeable....is Barkevious Mingo considered a DE or an OLB. What about Sheard when he was here? PFR lists Kruger as a DE....I thought he was considered an OLB.

So, sometimes terminology is confused. As someone said, these guys are "edge" players.

Well...sometimes we just play with a double edged blade. Both the OLB and the DE...including in a 3-4, can be edge players.

[Tour2ma]

"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".

 

Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.

[tiamat63]

"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".

 

Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.

Forget it he's rolling.

[The Gipper]

"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".

 

Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.

All that may be true.....but to say that rushing the passer is not a primary duty of a Defensive End is just Ludicrous.

That would be like saying that catching passes is not the primary duty of a tight end. Of course it is a primary duty of a Tight End to catch passes. Yes, he has other duties, like blocking.....and some TEs may be better at pass catching than others.....and some DEs 4/3/3/4 may be better at rushing the passer than others.....but it is still a primary duty of the DE to do that.

[The Gipper]

Forget it he's rolling.

If that is what you call "being right"...so be it.

[Tour2ma]

If that is what you call "being right"...so be it.

 

It's not... except in "Gipworld"...

[gftChris]

Pigeons, chess, etc.

[The Gipper]

 

It's not... except in "Gipworld"...

All right.....let's me act as stupid as you....and agree that Defensive Ends have no responsibility for rushing the passer. Let them all sit there like potted plants when the QB goes back to pass. Just occasionally put their hands in the air to bat down a pass.

Yea, right.

[tiamat63]

All right.....let's me act as stupid as you....and agree that Defensive Ends have no responsibility for rushing the passer. Let them all sit there like potted plants when the QB goes back to pass. Just occasionally put their hands in the air to bat down a pass.

Yea, right.

You're confusing 'no resonsibility' for 'primary responsibility'.

[gftChris]

You're confusing 'no resonsibility' for 'primary responsibility'.

Nuance? Ain't nobody got time for that.

[TexasAg1969]

Opportunity... smoportunity...

 

Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs...

 

But then there is always the waiver wire...

 

Or just add Myles Garrett next year since we will likely be in position to actually keep our high 1st rounder for player/position of greatest value to the team.

 

"Truth be known, Sumlin said Garrett is one of the last guys on the A&M roster who needed a reminder about avoiding an attitude of entitlement."

Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/college/sec/texas-a-m/article89255807.html#storylink=cpy

[Flugel]

This sucks!

 

There's an article out there. Maybe there's a relationship between the strength coach and pec injuries. Sometimes when the weight is simply too much for the body.

 

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2016/7/13/12171580/browns-pass-rusher-done-for-season-with-torn-pectoral

 

You bring up a good point MadDog. It's not so much the weight being too heavy as it is the type of strength training being performed.

 

Back in 1996, I got promoted to start up a Corporate Fitness facility at Xerox in St Pete on the other side of the causeway bridge connecting to Tampa. Long story short, I volunteered 2 mornings per week with the Tampa Bay Bucs in 1997 and 1998 in their off-season strength training program.

 

In 1997 the Head Strength and Conditioning Coach did up a strength training clinic for the local area. The guest speaker was Kenny Mannie PhD in Ex Phys, who was the Strength Training coach for Nick Saban at Michigan State. It began with a slide show of brutal injuries during weight lifting activities. Inevitably the question was asked what do all these people have in common besides the injuries shared. One person answered those are Olympic Lifts which was correct. An athletic trainer in attendance piggybacked - "it looks like they are all Olympic Athletes based on their uniforms." BINGO! And what do Olympic Athletes share? They are all considered the best in their country competing to be the best in the world at the Olympic Lifts. In spite of some of the best techniques, talent and coaching - many of the best in the world could not prevent brutal injuries during the ballistic movements.

 

This kicked off the presentation to local high school/college coaches, athletic trainers and fitness personnel about the importance of healthy strength training vrs high risk ballistic movements. If those kinds of injuries can happen to guys with ideal technique and coaching - what do you think can happen when there isn't ideal coaching of techniques down into the high schools and up to college/pro football programs? A trend of injuries to athletes before they even get on the field.

 

This was a really interesting clinic because at the time of it - a lot of strength training programs throughout the country began moving to the ballistic Olympic Lifts thinking the ability to mimic various sports movements had an absolute carry over to the field. Of course, Kenny Mannie shared his interesting theory of disapproval on that. Cliff Notes Clavin here will sum it up as Kenny saying Functionalists are full of shit. Kenny said when you describe someone as "going ballistic" you're meaning they are out of control. He said a Functionalist will describe his his lifts as explosive while a Realist describes those as ballistic.

 

Head Strength and Conditioning Coach - Mark Asanovich, who was the 1st Coach Tony Dungy hired in Tampa, went on to say his job is to help pro football players gain better fitness, flexibility and performance while keeping them healthy. His job is also to remain cognizant that all of that also requires rest and recuperation for optimal gains (especially as the football season and contact gets underway). If you're doing power cleans or hang cleans, you're putting a tremendous amount of wear and tear on your joints, muscles and tendons. Mark said if he got any starters injured in the weight room - he wouldn't just be answering to the Head Coach but the Owner who invested in the athlete he just shelved. I can't remember where and when I heard this but Charles Haley allegedly injured one or two of his lower back discs doing ballistic lifts in the weight room. It may not have ended at the time of the injury per say; but the physic of the sport Charles played probably weren't very helpful to the healing process.

 

That was way back in BC (Before Cellphones); so I couldn't tell you with any validity how many NFL teams are using ballistic Olympic Lifts in their program today. I know Cleveland's current Strength Program uses some; while I'm hoping there's enough experience to do it as safely as possible. The history in MadDog's link is somewhat of a concern but let's hope the coach it speaks about has learned from mistakes like all of us have to do at 1 time or another.

 

My take on Desmond Bryant is he hasn't been the same force he was before he had the surgery on his heart valve a few years ago. While I hate losing a starter before they even put the pads on - nobody on our 3-13 defense was irreplaceable. The 1 thing I did like D Bryant was they kicked him inside from time to time where he would even line up on the Nose here and there in addition to playing the 5 technique. That said, he wasn't striking me as a "best football ahead" kind of guy. I agree with the guys in here saying this is an ideal opportunity for others to step up. Nobody knew/predicted Tom Brady was an upgrade to Drew Bledsoe until a lacerated kidney allowed people to witness such a thing. When we lost Courtney Brown to IR we gained a Pro Bowl edge rush from Jamir Miller.

[Tour2ma]

Or just add Myles Garrett next year since we will likely be in position to actually keep our high 1st rounder for player/position of greatest value to the team.

 

Great idea! Wait a year for an undersized 3-4 DE!

[Flugel]

"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".

 

Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.

 

For example, when J.J. Watt played in a 3-4 D in college - he played a lot of 2 gap 5 techniques unselfishly helping teammates/LBers make the tackles and plays he was probably more capable of making himself. He had 4.5 sacks in 2009 and 7 sacks in 2010 at Wisconsin, which isn't nearly as football sexy as making him the focal point of a pass rush off the edge.

 

Interestingly enough, when Watt was coming out in the draft - it was mentioned he would be a better fit for a 3-4 than a 4-3. As fate would have it, Watt was drafted by a team that was using a 3-4 prior to his arrival. Once DC Wade Phillips realized what he had in conjunction with some injuries to his LBer Corps, he switched to a 4 man front for something like 78-88% of the snaps. It went well enough to show Houston J.J. was far from limited to just 1 type of front in a 5 technique playing 2 gap exclusively. They're back to a 34 defense but there's no handcuffs on J.J. You're never going to know what's possible if you set premature boundaries and limitations on a player like J.J. That goes for any of the young front 7 guys we have here today.

 

I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. And since we got our team back, the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.

 

Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.

[gumby73]

I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.

 

Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.

At least someone else has the gonads to say it..Well Done Flug!! Email was sent to Horton i hope

[Flugel]

At least someone else has the gonads to say it..Well Done Flug!! Email was sent to Horton i hope

 

Thanks Gumby! I think Horton wants to vary the fronts but the first time he came here he took on the talent load of a 4 win team with injuries compounding what he could and couldn't do. It was like he was given a gridiron chess table without all the chess pieces for the alignments and strategies he wanted to pull off.

 

The last thing we need to be worrying about coming off 3 wins is losing defensive linemen before training camp starts in the weight room. But, when we only won 3 games with yesterday's talent ranking with anchors - who in that front 7 was irreplaceable?

[Mudfly]

Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????

 

Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....

[TexasAg1969]

 

Great idea! Wait a year for an undersized 3-4 DE!

 

Actually I was referring to this part of your post, "Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs..."

 

He would be the one worth making the change to 4-3 permanent. Opportunity!

[Flugel]

Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????

 

Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....

 

I hope not Mud.

 

Cooper was a rookie so there was a reluctance to start that ahead of our highest paid veteran (D. Bryant) who was well liked by the DC. Orchard didn't start at his OLB position; but once he got a chance to get more reps later on in our train-wreck - he closed the season pretty well IMO. I don't think Cooper and Orchard on a limited rep count was a case of they sucked or there's no chance at upside ahead. It was more of a perception of who was ready to play faster both mentally and physically.

 

If memory serves me right, John Hughes played NT in college at Cincy because he was good at 2 gap football there. I don't know if he ever had the foot speed to play DE. In fact, we also also auditioned guys like Phil Taylor and Ahtyba Rubin out at DE as recently as 2013 or 2014 (both guys that played DT/NT inside in college d/t to a lack of footspeed to play DE). I think we'd appreciate Hughes' 2 gap ability/integrity better inside where his boundary is far smaller than all the way to the sidelines.

 

Jamie Meder seemed like a pleasant surprise to me when he got reps while Randy Starks was here for his experience and hopes of bringing leadership which he failed at.

 

Horton was fond of hybrid fronts when he arrived here the first time. I think injuries up front limited how many down linemen he went with as well as taking guys out of their comfort zones to play in unfamiliar spaces. If we can be more fortunate with injuries - I could see us having some luck with 4 man fronts. That means our guys on the edge don't have to waste time pondering do I rush or drop challenging their explosion out of snap and playing fast immediately there after. Inside, Hughes can play more effective with 2 gap in a smaller space while teaming with Shelton or Meder.

 

As I said a couple posts ago, I'm not a big fan of our marriage to the 5 techniques over the years. I'd at least like to see it less frequently. I think we have the personnel to hurry a passer more easily out of a 4 man front than we would out of a 3 man fronts we've gagged on. I don't want our rookie edge rushers to feel like the comedian's puppy named Stay. Paralysis from over-analysis vrs sic em? I gots to go with sic em.

[gumby73]

Mud & Flug you both bring up great points. Less than a week to Camp & the DE position just added a major concern but there's time to shuffle before camp. Hell Billy Wynn is still a FA.. The positive of the draft & FA maybe LB & WR. Now with Des out, Why do we continue the Ogbah move to LB? His career was build at DE.. If we line 3. I like Hughes,Shelton & Ogbah. With not additions we go to camp with Meder & Lawrence Staple (PS maybe, but a run stuffier) both at 320 will rotate Shelton at nose. Last updated depth chart I have seen is RDE-Hughes,Ogbah & Dylan Wynn. LDE-X.Cooper, C. Nassib & Kyle Rose. ROLB- Orchard, A. Bryant, Jackson Jeffcoat & Cam Johnson. RILB-Dmario Davis, Carder & Scooby. LOLB- Kruger, Mingo & Schobert. RILB- Kirksey, Tuggle & D. Alexander. Somehow Ogbah needs to stay home at DE R or L imo..

[Clevfan4life]

 

For example, when J.J. Watt played in a 3-4 D in college - he played a lot of 2 gap 5 techniques unselfishly helping teammates/LBers make the tackles and plays he was probably more capable of making himself. He had 4.5 sacks in 2009 and 7 sacks in 2010 at Wisconsin, which isn't nearly as football sexy as making him the focal point of a pass rush off the edge.

 

Interestingly enough, when Watt was coming out in the draft - it was mentioned he would be a better fit for a 3-4 than a 4-3. As fate would have it, Watt was drafted by a team that was using a 3-4 prior to his arrival. Once DC Wade Phillips realized what he had in conjunction with some injuries to his LBer Corps, he switched to a 4 man front for something like 78-88% of the snaps. It went well enough to show Houston J.J. was far from limited to just 1 type of front in a 5 technique playing 2 gap exclusively. They're back to a 34 defense but there's no handcuffs on J.J. You're never going to know what's possible if you set premature boundaries and limitations on a player like J.J. That goes for any of the young front 7 guys we have here today.

 

I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. And since we got our team back, the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.

 

Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack

 

was jamir not the 4-3 olb'er?

[Flugel]

 

was jamir not the 4-3 olb'er?

 

In 1999 and 2000, yes.

 

In 2001 when Courtney Brown went on IR after week 5, Jamir played the next 11 games at his spot and added 13 sacks earning himself a Pro Bowl at DE.

[Zombo]

Seems to me that Tyrone Rogers replaced Brown, opposite of Lang, and Miller was a pass rushing linebacker.

 

Z

[Flugel]

Seems to me that Tyrone Rogers replaced Brown, opposite of Lang, and Miller was a pass rushing linebacker.

 

Z

 

If memory serves me right, we used a 4 man front back then where your OLB isn't the designated pass rusher of the alignment. Since it was 15 years ago - let me look it up and get some clarity:

 

Kenard Lang was a Washington Redskin in 2001.

Courtney Brown started 5 games at DE prior to IR.

Tyrone Rogers started 10 games at DE.

Greg Spires started 4 games at DE.

Orpheus Roye played mostly DT in his 10 starts but occasionally kicked out to DE.

Keith McKenzie started 6 games at DE.

Jamir Miller is listed at DE/LB so I'm going on summer school arithmetic and an old bastard's memory that he played OLB the first 5 games and played out of a 3 point stance the last 11 games.

 

Here's the stats, starts and positions listed:

No. Player Age Pos G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty

95 Jamir Miller*+ 28 de/LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 14 4 0 0 0 0 13.0 81 18

57 Dwayne Rudd 25 LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0.5 72 27

24 Corey Fuller 30 LCB 16 16 3 82 1 49 21 2 0 1 0 0 70 15

20 Earl Little 28 SS 16 16 5 33 0 15 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 64 17

33 Daylon McCutcheon 25 RCB 16 15 4 62 1 32 11 2 0 0 0 0 2.0 65 6

52 Brant Boyer 30 mlb 16 2 2 12 0 8 4 60 19

58 Wali Rainer 24 MLB 14 13 0 0 0 0 4 3 0 1 0 0 1.0 53 29

94 Gerard Warren 23 LDT 15 15 0 0 0 0 6 5.0 48 13

23 Devin Bush 28 fs 16 7 2 62 1 43 4 1 0 1 0 0 43 19

37 Anthony Henry 25 db/rcb 16 2 10 177 1 97 17 44 10

43 Percy Ellsworth 27 FS 11 9 1 19 0 19 4 1.0 39 8

78 Tyrone Rogers 27 DE 16 10 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 30 9

74 Mark Smith 27 rdt 16 11 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 0 0 2.0 29 13

96 Greg Spires 27 de 16 4 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 4.0 22 7

99 Orpheus Roye 28 de/ldt/rdt 12 10 1 0 0 0 4 18 7 1

92 Courtney Brown 23 de 5 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0 2 25 1 4.5 14 7

31 Raymond Jackson 28 15 0 3 52 0 52 3 15 2

90 Keith McKenzie 28 de 7 6 0 0 0 0 5 3.0 12 2

47 Scott Frost 26 12 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 3

51 Lenoy Jones 27 mlb 7 1 10 6

55 Anthony Denman 22 11 0 10 4

21 Marquis Smith 26 14 2 0 0 0 0 1 9 2

70 Alvin McKinley 23 7 0 6 6

36 Chris Akins 25 4 0 5 0

[Flugel]

While I regret his loss, it's also a great OPPORTUNITY for one of our young players to step up. It will be interesting to see who will. I do think we have talent there.

 

Mike

 

You and Zombo share this point and it's a really good one IMO.

 

Way back in 2001, our 1st overall pick from 2000 (Courtney Brown) had 5 sacks in his first 5 games before he suffered a season ending injury. Seemed like we were looking at improbability of replacing him with anyone decent especially knowing we only won 3 games the year before. As fate would have, we begin to see how Jamir Miller could play from a 3 point stance in lieu of the 2 point stance we were accustomed to seeing in 1999 and 2000. He finished the year with 13 sacks while we improved to 7 wins in spite of losing 2 OTs games.

 

1 year later (2002) when it seemed like the defense was going to be built around Jamir's Pro Bowl pass rush skills, we lost him to a career ending injury in our first preseason game. Despite the bad news, we went on to win 9 games and make the playoffs the only time since we've had our team back.

 

That's why they play the games...

[Tour2ma]

Actually I was referring to this part of your post, "Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs..."

 

Sometimes it's more fun to feign ignorance...

 

Hell Billy Wynn is still a FA.

 

Trimmed down, he'd be fine by me...

[Mudfly]

 

I hope not Mud.

 

Horton was fond of hybrid fronts when he arrived here the first time. I think injuries up front limited how many down linemen he went with as well as taking guys out of their comfort zones to play in unfamiliar spaces. If we can be more fortunate with injuries - I could see us having some luck with 4 man fronts. That means our guys on the edge don't have to waste time pondering do I rush or drop challenging their explosion out of snap and playing fast immediately there after. Inside, Hughes can play more effective with 2 gap in a smaller space while teaming with Shelton or Meder.

 

As I said a couple posts ago, I'm not a big fan of our marriage to the 5 techniques over the years. I'd at least like to see it less frequently. I think we have the personnel to hurry a passer more easily out of a 4 man front than we would out of a 3 man fronts we've gagged on. I don't want our rookie edge rushers to feel like the comedian's puppy named Stay. Paralysis from over-analysis vrs sic em? I gots to go with sic em.

Right....Id say, now more than ever, we have personnel that best fits a 4-3......we have a ton of 4-3 DE's we are trying to morph into OLB's.....and we have a wealth of interior DT's, we are using as DE's and we have a shortage of versatile LB's, which we are spinning our wheels on with guys like Kruger, Bryant & Mingo.....so, why force ALL these guys to play out of position????......

 

Id use a 4 man front, something like.........A. Bryant...Shelton...Meder...ogbah.....backed by Kirksey...Davis and Orchard......

And back them up with a rotation of...........Nassib....Hughes...Cooper...Kruger....backed by Schobert..Wright....Mingo.....

 

And, looking at this....even with only 3, you can still see the weakness of LB and the strength on DL.....

 

But the Browns will jam those DE's into the OLB position(diminishing their skills) and creating situations where our DE's turned OLB's cannot make the play, cover the TE or slot, catch the RB in the flat, etc.....

 

Simply put...use what you got.....and adjust the system to the talent. So far, that aint happening(with Horton or Pettine)....

 

 

 

Mud & Flug you both bring up great points. Now with Des out, Why do we continue the Ogbah move to LB? His career was build at DE.. If we line 3. I like Hughes,Shelton & Ogbah. With not additions we go to camp with Meder & Lawrence Staple (PS maybe, but a run stuffier) both at 320 will rotate Shelton at nose. Last updated depth chart I have seen is RDE-Hughes,Ogbah & Dylan Wynn. LDE-X.Cooper, C. Nassib & Kyle Rose. ROLB- Orchard, A. Bryant, Jackson Jeffcoat & Cam Johnson. RILB-Dmario Davis, Carder & Scooby. LOLB- Kruger, Mingo & Schobert. RILB- Kirksey, Tuggle & D. Alexander. Somehow Ogbah needs to stay home at DE R or L imo..

And, if he stays, lets get A. Bryant back to DE.....and, if we MUST keep him, do the same with Kruger.....these 2 aint OLB's. Point blank.

[gftChris]

Nate Orchard had 18 sacks or something as a 4-3 DE and you'd play him 4-3 OLB? I agree by and large about the switch to 4-3, but with Ogbah, Orchard, Nassib and Bryant we have some pretty decent pass rushers. Kruger could even be cut, I know you'd like that! Mingo's coverage and occasional blitzing would work well as a 4-3 OLB (not the mike though, you kinda need a brain for that), with Davis in the middle and Kirksey at the other OLB spot.

[Zombo]

 

If memory serves me right, we used a 4 man front back then where your OLB isn't the designated pass rusher of the alignment. Since it was 15 years ago - let me look it up and get some clarity:

 

Kenard Lang was a Washington Redskin in 2001.

Courtney Brown started 5 games at DE prior to IR.

Tyrone Rogers started 10 games at DE.

Greg Spires started 4 games at DE.

Orpheus Roye played mostly DT in his 10 starts but occasionally kicked out to DE.

Keith McKenzie started 6 games at DE.

Jamir Miller is listed at DE/LB so I'm going on summer school arithmetic and an old bastard's memory that he played OLB the first 5 games and played out of a 3 point stance the last 11 games.

 

Here's the stats, starts and positions listed:

No. Player Age Pos G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty

95 Jamir Miller*+ 28 de/LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 14 4 0 0 0 0 13.0 81 18

57 Dwayne Rudd 25 LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0.5 72 27

24 Corey Fuller 30 LCB 16 16 3 82 1 49 21 2 0 1 0 0 70 15

20 Earl Little 28 SS 16 16 5 33 0 15 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 64 17

33 Daylon McCutcheon 25 RCB 16 15 4 62 1 32 11 2 0 0 0 0 2.0 65 6

52 Brant Boyer 30 mlb 16 2 2 12 0 8 4 60 19

58 Wali Rainer 24 MLB 14 13 0 0 0 0 4 3 0 1 0 0 1.0 53 29

94 Gerard Warren 23 LDT 15 15 0 0 0 0 6 5.0 48 13

23 Devin Bush 28 fs 16 7 2 62 1 43 4 1 0 1 0 0 43 19

37 Anthony Henry 25 db/rcb 16 2 10 177 1 97 17 44 10

43 Percy Ellsworth 27 FS 11 9 1 19 0 19 4 1.0 39 8

78 Tyrone Rogers 27 DE 16 10 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 30 9

74 Mark Smith 27 rdt 16 11 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 0 0 2.0 29 13

96 Greg Spires 27 de 16 4 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 4.0 22 7

99 Orpheus Roye 28 de/ldt/rdt 12 10 1 0 0 0 4 18 7 1

92 Courtney Brown 23 de 5 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0 2 25 1 4.5 14 7

31 Raymond Jackson 28 15 0 3 52 0 52 3 15 2

90 Keith McKenzie 28 de 7 6 0 0 0 0 5 3.0 12 2

47 Scott Frost 26 12 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 3

51 Lenoy Jones 27 mlb 7 1 10 6

55 Anthony Denman 22 11 0 10 4

21 Marquis Smith 26 14 2 0 0 0 0 1 9 2

70 Alvin McKinley 23 7 0 6 6

36 Chris Akins 25 4 0 5 0

So Lang didn't get there until 2002 ... I liked him.

 

Guess I was thinking of McKenzie.

 

When they were all healthy at the beginning of the year they were pretty bad ass. That heartbreaking loss to the Bears where they scored 20 points in 2 seconds ... Our DL was dominating that game up to that point.

 

Z

[Mudfly]

Nate Orchard had 18 sacks or something as a 4-3 DE and you'd play him 4-3 OLB? I agree by and large about the switch to 4-3, but with Ogbah, Orchard, Nassib and Bryant we have some pretty decent pass rushers. Kruger could even be cut, I know you'd like that! Mingo's coverage and occasional blitzing would work well as a 4-3 OLB (not the mike though, you kinda need a brain for that), with Davis in the middle and Kirksey at the other OLB spot.

Yeah....I agree that Orchard would be really nice at DE, but with this group, he's likely to be our best OLB by a mile(at least in my mind). Id rather have him on the field with some of the other pass rushers..

 

And yes, Id like "that"....

 

And agree that Kirksey and Mingo should be the other OLBs....with a 4-3, I think Mingo would have a better chance shooting gaps and flashing around "occupied" OL......and is an ideal coverage backer....