Did the New FO Find Enough Play Makers?

[Tour2ma]

You're a lot better than I am. You thoroughly research the draft and treat us to some great write-ups. I was excited about Manziel's football skills and naive about how much the football would take a back seat to the out of control party animal. Living in Western, NY I saw first hand that an Irish party animal like Jim Kelly could still function and play QB in a game he loved. Therefore, I didn't think it would be any different for Johnny Manziel. I was WRONG! It's a good thing social media wasn't around when Kelly hit the Elmwood strip in Buffalo including some Saturday nights before Sunday home games. My Step mother who was VP of Nursing at Sisters of Charity Hospital in Buffalo prior to HIPPA said Kelly's girl friend (who is now his wife) showed up to their emergency room 3 different times badly beaten. My buddy who bounced at a bar said Kelly used to grab her and shove her around all the time when he got liquored up. It's a good thing some people change or grow up. Since then, he's done a lot of good stuff in the community, survived cancer with a wife that never gave up on "for better or worse"when she had countless reasons to. It seems like they arrived at the relationship she always wanted. Manziel came to us even younger than Kelly arrived in Buffalo. He only completed 2 seasons of college.

 

I think we all wanted either Sammy Watkins or Khalil Mack over Justin Gilbert.

 

Thanks... I think so, too... ... sorry, could not resist...

 

Seriously, my JM concerns were more on-the-field than off. All I saw was a playground QB who couldn't read beyond his first option and then scrambled with one hand up his ass searching for anything to pull out. Granted... that was one full ass, but it wasn't going to be at the next level where "excitement" is no substitute for competence.

 

What that view did for me was lower the tolerance for any injury or off-field risk... and I saw more than enough for both.

 

 

As for Watkins... I was all over him (took shit for that as well actually), but the moment Mack fell to us it was Sammie Who? I even posted "Holy Shit... Mack is there" in the tavern... then came the trade-down. Mack still on the board made that trade undoable IMO... but ultimately I held my nose and drank the fucking Gilbert-flavored Kool-aid. I've been sick ever since...

 

I wish rehashes like this were more therapeutic...

[Flugel]

 

sure college numbers are great. i could go on and list AT LEAST a dozen more players drafted by some FO of the browns since their reinception just to show you it all means dick. what i hate the most is that most of us fans can see the talent within some of these players but yet, due to some scheme bullshit they aren't allowed to flourish within the brown's org. perfect example is jabaal sheard. do you think belichick takes away a player's talent by restricting him to play a position that he's never played before in his short football career? having mingo or sheard drop back into pass coverage isn't just silly it's fucking maddening. some times the coach needs to drop his clipboard and tell a guy "go get him!" maybe hue is that guy.....don't know. but just cuz we got some guys who had/have great numbers somewhere else doesn't mean we should all break out the happy dance.

been there. done that.

Mik: I'm your Huckleberry when it comes to this opinion.

 

 

Mingo was getting rag dolled so much by Left Tackles in the NFL they had to be calling him Raggedy Ann in opposing film rooms. And when the underweighted edge rusher is also playing with an injured shoulder, why not get the levers of his 6'5" frame into a hook zone or the flats to challenge the accuracy of a passer? I've seen him intercept Peyton Manning in overtime giving us the ball at Denver's 39 yard line in 2015; and he either intercepted somebody else at our 1 yard line or batted the ball down on 4th down.

 

BTW, Mingo wasn't exactly a sack monster at LSU. He only had 4.5 sacks his last year at LSU with 8.5 TFLs. Nothing about that said gotta-have in round 1 especially if you saw other prospects playing from the same draft pool. We made an epic reach for a 240 lb guy to take on NFL LTs averaging about 320 lbs. Before that, we took a guy like Greg Little at WR up in round 2 thinking all we gotta do is teach this guy how to catch and run routes. Is this Arena Football or the NFL? While we're doing that Cincy is drafting an AJ Green that already knew how to catch the ball and run routes in the SEC that was putting a whole lotta DBs in the NFL. That guy couldn't catch a cold in cold and flu season. His first 2 years starting here, we led the conference in dropped passes with him leading our WR Corps in those. And when it came time for the big guy to get the ball in a traffic, he turned into Danny Ferry. Let's not pretend their failures are all bad coaching. If you have start thinking about hiring David Copperfield to make a prospect work, you made a stupid draft choice at the draft. So yeah, I LIKE to see some evidence of guys being productive statistically before they come here rather than hoping we can just Dr Frankenstein them into something they haven't put on film yet. Having said that, Mingo finally got his off season weight up to about 260 lbs for the first time.

 

Sometimes your FO, has to know what your coaching philosophy and are of expertise is. For example, HC Bill Cowher and former GM Tom Donahoe were not co-existing very well. Once they sent Donahoe packing to Buffalo for a couple cups of coffee, Pittsburgh eventually got good enough to make SBs and win them again. Classic example of compatibility needed.

 

You better believe Scott Pioli knew what BB's philosophy and expertise was in NE when all that was taking off. In fact, Ozzie Newsome said he took everything he learned from BB in Cleveland and brought it to Rattymore. That's how you bring in guys ready to fit your systems. That said, BB began his gig in NE with a 4-3 and Ted Johnson playing MLB until injury volume to their d-line got BB back to his 3-4 comfort zone.

 

If your WR Corps has the fewest TD receptions the last year or 2, you're against adding a prospect that was good at scoring TDs and won an award that called him the best WR? You'd rather find the next Greg Little? Okay...

 

If you don't hurry very many passers in 2015, you don't think adding the prospect leading the country in sacks and the next best guy at it is a good idea? You'd rather find the next Mingo we can rewire more power, strength and instincts into? Okay...

 

As for the Courtney Brown thing, like the Kellen Winslow thing, like the Braylon Edwards thing, like the FA LeCharles Bentley thing - history shows me and our new FO that putting all our marbles into 1 guy that can get injured might not be as good of an idea as what they're doing in NE seemingly every year with trading back for more picks (despite usually having less openings for starting spots). We just did the trade-back thing. If we were at a restaurant looking for a table for what we just drafted it would sound like this when we're talking to the Hostess: Cleveland - party of 14. We also added picks to 2017 inclusive of another 1st round pick which doesn't suck.

 

It's okay to get excited about a different way of drafting guys and bringing in FAs than those that kept us ranking with anchors most of the time... What's my alternative? Getting pumped to watch re-runs of the Golden Girls or inviting Ghoolie over to watch the Hallmark Channel?

[miktoxic]

It's okay to get excited about a different way of drafting guys and bringing in FAs than those kept us ranking with anchors most of the time... What's my alternative? Getting pumped to watch re-runs of the Golden Girls or inviting Ghoolie over to watch the Hallmark Channel?

 

who's got a quarter?

[Flugel]

 

who's got a quarter?

 

LOL! I might if you have 2 tens for a five...

[The Gipper]

 

Mingo was getting rag dolled so much by Left Tackles in the NFL they had to be calling him Raggedy Ann in opposing film rooms. And when the underweighted edge rusher is also playing with an injured shoulder, why not get the levers of his 6'5" frame into a hook zone or the flats to challenge the accuracy of a passer? I've seen him intercept Peyton Manning in overtime giving us the ball at Denver's 39 yard line in 2015; and he either intercepted somebody else at our 1 yard line or batted the ball down on 4th down.

 

BTW, Mingo wasn't exactly a sack monster at LSU. He only had 4.5 sacks his last year at LSU with 8.5 TFLs. Nothing about that said gotta-have in round 1 especially if you saw other prospects playing from the same draft pool. We made an epic reach for a 240 lb guy to take on NFL LTs averaging about 320 lbs. Before that, we took a guy like Greg Little at WR up in round 2 thinking all we gotta do is teach this guy how to catch and run routes. Is this Arena Football or the NFL? While we're doing that Cincy is drafting an AJ Green that already knew how to catch the ball and run routes in the SEC that was putting a whole lotta DBs in the NFL. That guy couldn't catch a cold in cold and flu season. His first 2 years starting here, we led the conference in dropped passes with him leading our WR Corps in those. And when it came time for the big guy to get the ball in a traffic, he turned into Danny Ferry. Let's not pretend their failures are all bad coaching. If you have start thinking about hiring David Copperfield to make a prospect work, you made a stupid draft choice at the draft. So yeah, I LIKE to see some evidence of guys being productive statistically before they come here rather than hoping we can just Dr Frankenstein them into something they haven't put on film yet. Having said that, Mingo finally got his off season weight up to about 260 lbs for the first time.

 

Sometimes your FO, has to know what your coaching philosophy and are of expertise is. For example, HC Bill Cowher and former GM Tom Donahoe were not co-existing very well. Once they sent Donahoe packing to Buffalo for a couple cups of coffee, Pittsburgh eventually got good enough to make SBs and win them again. Classic example of compatibility needed.

 

You better believe Scott Pioli knew what BB's philosophy and expertise was in NE when all that was taking off. In fact, Ozzie Newsome said he took everything he learned from BB in Cleveland and brought it to Rattymore. That's how you bring in guys ready to fit your systems. That said, BB began his gig in NE with a 4-3 and Ted Johnson playing MLB until injury volume to their d-line got BB back to his 3-4 comfort zone.

 

If your WR Corps has the fewest TD receptions the last year or 2, you're against adding a prospect that was good at scoring TDs and won an award that called him the best WR? You'd rather find the next Greg Little? Okay...

 

If you don't hurry very many passers in 2015, you don't think adding the prospect leading the country in sacks and the next best guy at it is a good idea? You'd rather find the next Mingo we can rewire more power, strength and instincts into? Okay...

 

As for the Courtney Brown thing, like the Kellen Winslow thing, like the Braylon Edwards thing, like the FA LeCharles Bentley thing - history shows me and our new FO that putting all our marbles into 1 guy that can get injured might not be as good of an idea as what they're doing in NE seemingly every year with trading back for more picks (despite usually having less openings for starting spots). We just did the trade-back thing. If we were at a restaurant looking for a table for what we just drafted it would sound like this when we're talking to the Hostess: Cleveland - party of 14. We also added picks to 2017 inclusive of another 1st round pick which doesn't suck.

 

It's okay to get excited about a different way of drafting guys and bringing in FAs than those that kept us ranking with anchors most of the time... What's my alternative? Getting pumped to watch re-runs of the Golden Girls or inviting Ghoolie over to watch the Hallmark Channel?

I am not discounting the fact that Mingo could actually, really turn out to be a bust. I just do think he should get more opportunity to rush the passer...and see what he can do there. While I think he is under utilized....it is also possible that he is just no good.

And.....he WAS a Mike Lombardi pick......and that is NEVER a good thing for you to be.

 

On your point about picking players who have proven production in college and translating that to the pros.....THAT is what this last draft was all about....fair to say. What did they get....the top 2 sackers in college this past year? The top productive WR. And other top college performers.

 

Lets hope that the philosophy of taking top college performers translates to production in the pros.

Is that analytics? It seems so absurdly simple.

[Unsympathetic]

 

trading back for more picks

 

The key regarding picking early AND picking late: Everybody's picks suck. It's about volume, and hoping that you hit on more than you miss. Lombardi is a special GM.. in the way that you don't want to be, because whatever his decision is about something, that's guaranteed to be the wrong move.

 

And really, don't talk about the Pats as a team with good drafting: They took a QB in round3 in 2016.. instead of a weapon for Brady to get another SB before he retires. They barely earned a C overall in 2016, and the past was no better with a lot of extremely questionable decisions. Their history really is not just "trade back" all the time. All the sports talk media around here has been ripping BB a new one.

 

 

Yes, the Pats have been 100% with their first-round selections, but barely 50% after that.. It's almost impossible to replicate how awful the Browns have been at drafting the last few years.

 

2014: Bitonio/Kirksey, the rest are terrible. 4 fails, 2 rd1. [6]

2013: The best pick was Armonty Bryant in the 7th. It's 9am and I already want a drink. 4 fails, 1 rd1. [6]

2012: Hughes in the 3rd. Benjamin 4, Schwartz 2 also have done well. Winn is depth. 7 fails, 2 rd1. [11]

2011: None still on our roster. Sheard, Cameron are borderline all-pro; skrine is depth, the rest busts. 5 fails, 1 rd1. [8]

2010: Only Haden still on our roster. Ward left. 6 of the picks were busts. 7 fails. [8]

2009: None still on our roster. Mack left. 8 fails. [9]

 

5 players still on the roster from the 6 drafts prior to the last 2. 35 busts out of 48 picks. That's apocalyptic levels of incompetence.. If 50% of the players from 15 and 16 are decent starters, that's an order of magnitude better than before!

 

 

 

Fun: All 3 of the picks from 2015 cut so far by the Browns -- Olumu, Telfer, Mayle -- were the 3 picks the Browns got from the Cards to trade down instead of the Browns taking Rodney Gunter. Rodney Gunter started 11 games for Cards this past season at DT. So no, trading down is NOT always better.

[jiggins7919]

The Mingo pick scared the crap out of me, and I know many other fans shared a similar thought process. When I draft a pass rusher in the top 10 of the draft, I'd like to see him with more than just 4.5 sacks. We know Ray Horton likes to bring pressure, so hopefully Mingo will be able to thrive in this new system and make some plays.

 

As far as "finding enough play makers", it appears as if the front office MAY have lucked out with a certain WR getting reinstated. Let's have fun with it and say that Gordon shakes off the rust during training camp, STAYS CLEAN, serves his four game suspension...and joins the ranks of our squad. All of the sudden, our WR group looks like Coleman, Gordon, Hawkins, Higgins, Pryor, and don't forget about Gary Barnidge and Duke Johnson.

 

Man, looks much better than it did a few months ago, right?

[Mudfly]

On your point about picking players who have proven production in college and translating that to the pros.....THAT is what this last draft was all about....fair to say. What did they get....the top 2 sackers in college this past year? The top productive WR. And other top college performers.

 

Lets hope that the philosophy of taking top college performers translates to production in the pros.

Is that analytics? It seems so absurdly simple.

Didnt you go on and on about picking Bosa and, now, suddenly Ogbah and Nassib were great picks because they were the top 2??

 

Im thinking Richardson, Gilbert and Johnny were all "top performers" too....

 

Nothing about picking future stars is absurdly simple.....and the NFL draft history pretty much shows that......#crapshoot

[calfoxwc]

but just cuz we got some guys who had/have great numbers somewhere else doesn't mean we should all break out the happy dance.Mik

*******************************************

True, maybe. But the change of criteria for drafting players has finally changed

with this last draft.

 

Every team in the league drafts players who don't make it. I imagine every team in the league

has had 1st round busts.

 

However, the Browns previous regimes drafted with a shallow list of criteria. "him run fast, look

great on college highlights" kiind of stupidity.

 

This last draft is worth a happy dance, because the criteria dramatically improved.

 

Solid character, love for the game, work ethic, intelligence, and THEN the other things like

athleticism. You make a collection of misfits who don't want to work hard, aren't smart,

and don't love the game, don't care about winning...

 

you don't have a team that will win. JM didn't have the character or the love for the game.

Gilbert didn't have the work ethic, love for the game... smarts? I hate history rehashing, but the

list goes on and on. If a player doesn't fit the lockerroom or community, you don't draft him high.

 

Period. This last draft, every single player they drafted fit the really smart, complete

criteria, including productive, athletic, etc. But the criteria I listed above has to be

primary. Failing that, you are taking a huge chance that the player never gives a damn

about being a part of the team, winning, working hard, ...

 

The stupidity has stopped. Canton Mike got his pic taken with Danny Shelton - says he really

is chiseled - so is Mingo, from what I've read. And Pryor.

 

I really am happy dancing over the direction this team is taking now. Hue says he wants

to WIN NOW. No more vague, directionless "3 year plan". Enough with the failures of the past -

these Browns are going to be a team. And as soon as a player shows he doesn't care all that much

to really go after it all... he'll be cut before he could quit.

[jiggins7919]

I think this question can be answered somewhat differently now with the reinstatement of Gordon. Although the front office was not directly responsible for "bringing in Gordon", they can still get "credit" for him because they did allow him to come back. Even after reinstatement, I don't believe we HAD to accept the guy back. It obviously remains to be seen whether or not Gordon will impact our offense or not, but as of right now, it's safe to say he is a POTENTIAL playmaker, right?

 

And what about defensive playmakers? Could we get some good productivity out of people like Schobert and Scooby, maybe on special teams? And how badly do we NEED some sacks this year? What can Ogbah provide? Nassib? Will Armonty Bryant be able to give us a spark after his suspension? It's safe to say we have a ton of questions on both sides of the ball, and for better or worse, we're going to have the answers soon, LOL.

[The Gipper]

Didnt you go on and on about picking Bosa and, now, suddenly Ogbah and Nassib were great picks because they were the top 2??

 

Im thinking Richardson, Gilbert and Johnny were all "top performers" too....

 

Nothing about picking future stars is absurdly simple.....and the NFL draft history pretty much shows that......#crapshoot

Yes, I think Bosa will be better than our 2.......but your point (or someone's) about "picking the top college performers" is just what the Browns did here. (But I think Bosas numbers his previous year WERE "Top" numbers.

And yes, I agree that top performance in college by no means translated to top performance in the pros.....I guess I would rather have that than poor college performance.

Why should mediocre college performers expect to become top pro performers. You mention Mingo as an example. Perhaps that is right.

[gftChris]

But I think Bosas numbers his previous year WERE "Top" numbers.

 

In 2014 Bosa was 5th in the NCAA with 13.5 sacks. Coincidentally, the guys that came 2nd and 4th on that list are now browns - Nate Orchard (18.5) and Scooby Wright (14)

[The Gipper]

In 2014 Bosa was 5th in the NCAA with 13.5 sacks. Coincidentally, the guys that came 2nd and 4th on that list are now browns - Nate Orchard (18.5) and Scooby Wright (14)

good deal.

[Flugel]

In the doldrums of summer here, try to think what separated us from the Ravens when we last played them. It was 1 big play at the end of the game or was it not enough big plays leading up special teams deciding which team was going to win on the final play?

 

Teams that score TDs win more football games than teams playing for FGs. The team has Phil Dawson lost to us but Phil was perfect in that game with 1 FG the only time they were capable of putting points on the board. Back when they could score TDs far more consistently, they competed in Conference Championships and a Superbowl enough to appreciate they had Phil Dawson. Not much different than when we went 10-6 when we had a RB with 1300 yards and 10 TDs combining with a QB that threw 29 TD passes in 15 starts in 2007. Wow, I can even throw in the difference rookie Joe Thomas and veteran FA Eric Steinbach were making on the blind side of QB in 2007. Imagine that!

 

Let's take another look at the big play resumes of some of our 2016 draft class and see if we can agree with those premature conclusions that this front office refused to look for any play makers whatsoever:

 

1) JR WR Corey Coleman 5'11" 193 lbs. - 74 rec 1363 yds 18.4 avg 20 TDs.

All American and Biletnikoff Winner (as the nation's best WR). Had the best 40, 3 cone and vertical at Baylor to partially explain what's behind the productivity on the field. He didn't wear an Ohio State uniform though so how could he possibly measure up to Michael Thomas or Braxton Miller?

 

2) JR WR Rashard Higgins 6'2" 195 lbs. - 96 rec 1750 yds 18.2 avg 17 TDs soph & 75 rec 1062 yds 14.2 avg 8 TDs junior

Consensus All American in 2014 who led the nation in yards and TDs when he had an NFL prospect at QB before working with an inexperienced passer in 2015. The Head Coach McElwain also accepted a job at Florida in 2015. Higgins didn't wear an Ohio State uniform either so he's going to have to prove himself. Geee, I miss hotshots showing up here feeling entitled. There weren't any Gerard Warrens or Phil Taylors we could have had instead?

 

3) JR DE Emmanuel Ogbah 6'4" 275 lbs. - 13 sacks 17.5 Tackles for Loss (TFL) 3 Forced Fumb (FF)

All American and AP's Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year. That said, he was not an Ohio State Buckeye so we have to subtract 8 sacks and some tackles for losses and add 1 suspension to match the Joey Bosa level of special here. Bosa is the allegedly only edge rusher on the planet that has ever been chipped by TEs and found a RB in pass protection. Therefore Ogbah doesn't get to show up to the NFL feeling entitled in 2016 like Bosa.

 

4) SR DE Carl Nassib 6'6" 273 lbs - 15.5 sacks 19.5 TFL 6 FF

Led the nation in sacking the QB while he was pretty freakin productive at causing fumbles and tackling people in the backfield. Not bad for a guy who was told by Bill O'Brien not to bother thinking about the NFL. O'Brien went on to draft Jadevian Clowney #1 overall so he really knows how to size up what an inner chest projects there. Unfortunately, Nassib didn't play at Ohio State so we're supposed to understand none of that counts better than the Harvard intellects are capable of here.

 

5) JR LB Scooby Wright 6'1" 250 lbs - 14.5 sacks 29 TFL 6 FF as a soph (injured most of JR year)

If football was played on paper emphasizing fitness and prototypicals, this guy would start. Instead, it's played on the gridiron where 1st step instinct matters more than 40 times in a world where the average play lasts about 3-4 seconds. All that went on display when Scooby was the 2014 Pac 12 Defensive Player of the Year as a SOPH while winning the Bednarik, Lombardi and Nagurski Awards as well as earning All American honors. The 29 TFL led the nation even if they weren't at the Horseshoe. As much as I love Ohio State, I'd rather draft this guy in round 7 than another Craig Powell in the upper half of round 1. That said, Pepper Johnson never looked like he'd win any fitness awards but his ideal instincts sure helped our last playoff team to win a game in the post season win 11 regular season games.

 

6) SR LB Joe Schobert 6'2" 247 lbs - 9.5 sacks 19.5 TFL 5 FF

The LBer formerly known as White Men Can't Jump until 1 game changing basketball dunk video later. Not really a flashy guy commanding a lot of attention at Wisconsin so he was about as popular pre-draft to his position as Russell Wilson used to be at his position. Can this quiet guy off the field deliver a Joe Rassics-Bark with his pads on the field? Those are pretty impressive numbers flying under the radar that an aggressive Zone Blitzing DC might want to stealth attack offenses with.

 

7) SR QB Cody Kessler 6'1" 220 lbs - 10,399 yds 88 TDs 19 INTs 67.5 cmp% 3 years as starter

I realize I lost every single right to talk QBs here with my comment about seeing a future for Connor Shaw here. And now I'm bringing up the Kess? No wonder why I never knew the difference between Summer School and Summer's Cool. For those still reading, the Kess played for 5 different coaches before he impressed our brain trust and Hue. Maybe he can be what I thought Shaw was capable of becoming.

 

I don't know how many of these guys are ready sudden impact but they're only competing with talent that gave us 3 wins in 16 games. Some of that could be chalked up to inexperience, injuries and coaching. I once heard Bill Belichick describe Carl Banks in terms of it took him some time to get the position; but once he got it - it was well worth the time and patience invested in him. As it's been said, we have some 2nd year guys like Orchard, Shelton, and Cooper that might be ready to emerge. Whatever we add outside to our WR Corps should benefit Barnidge inside while he benefits them back. I see a common theme of blue collar work ethics that led to productive college resumes in the big play dept. It's a little better than hoping we can teach a 2nd round pick like Greg Little how to catch or hope he displays more courage in traffic than Danny Ferry.

 

There's other draftees I'm intrigued by that can help us on the line or with a situational role or a special teams duty. I just think as recently as 2014, our biggest hurdle to winning wasn't effort or even injury as much as it was play makers. If we can landed more play makers and stay a little healthier than we've been able to - there's no reason we can't win 1 more game than we won in 2014. I think we won 3 of 4 games without Alex Mack back then so can Alvin Bailey, Austin Pasztor or Shon Coleman/Spencer Drango/Joel Bitonio else play effectively at RT? We'll return 3 starters and have sufficient time to get people in the right places with an experienced coaching staff.

 

As you can see and so I've been told, I'm usually optimistic to a fault with a lot of our prospects.