the torture report

[Axe]

[MLD Woody]

It doesn't work like that. How are we supposed to be the worlds beacon of freedom and democracy if we can't even follow our own rules?

 

 

Also, to our many devout Christians, I'm not so sure Jesus would be on your side here....

[The Cysko Kid]

No one except bleeding hearts give a crap about the torture of terrorists

[MLD Woody]

So a country we are at war with should be allowed to torture our soldiers for attack info?

 

Our govt should be able to torture you because they think you may have info about something that may harm Americans?

 

 

 

It's hard to claim American greatness if we ignore our own rules

[Westside Steve]

Whether it works that way or not has little to do with Christianity. I personally don't believe, from what I've seen, we have any devout Christians on this board. And from my understanding of the teachings of Jesus no he would certainly not approve. Neither did Jesus preach retaliation. Or even self defense depending on your interpretation of turning the other cheek.

 

Do you have a different interpretation?

 

WSS

[The Cysko Kid]

So a country we are at war with should be allowed to torture our soldiers for attack info?

 

Our govt should be able to torture you because they think you may have info about something that may harm Americans?

 

 

 

It's hard to claim American greatness if we ignore our own rules

You're already pretty far gone if you think Islamic terrorists give a shit about the Geneva conventions.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Its easy to talk about American values when all you have ever done in your life is go to school, eat at chik-fil-a and post on the Browns Board. Its another when you are fighting these scumbags in there shit hole 1000 ad countries.

[sadbrownsfan]

Still what I said and die hard confirmed is true.

 

 

Also why did the White House insist upon covering some up for public view?

WSS

 

I would "assume" since this is information involving a recent event, that some information must remain classified(to protect people who may still be in the field or recently retired) unless it moves to a criminal court(or on the very off chance an international court) that information should remain classified till it reaches the standard expiration date(think 50 years).

[MLD Woody]

You're already pretty far gone if you think Islamic terrorists give a shit about the Geneva conventions.

So because they don't we shouldn't either?

[gftChris]

 

I would "assume" since this is information involving a recent event, that some information must remain classified(to protect people who may still be in the field or recently retired) unless it moves to a criminal court(or on the very off chance an international court) that information should remain classified till it reaches the standard expiration date(think 50 years).

funny you should mention that, some EU bod suggests that after this, Bush/Cheney might have a case to answer for war crimes. And in fairness, if the US is a fully paid up member of the geneva convention, he may have a point.

[MLD Woody]

Whether it works that way or not has little to do with Christianity. I personally don't believe, from what I've seen, we have any devout Christians on this board. And from my understanding of the teachings of Jesus no he would certainly not approve. Neither did Jesus preach retaliation. Or even self defense depending on your interpretation of turning the other cheek.

Do you have a different interpretation?

WSS

I would imagine Jesus would not be pro torture. I'm just saying, if you call yourself a Christian, you probably at least follow the teachings of Jesus. I know religion is all about picking and choosing what is "real", but torture seems like a biggie to ignore.

[MLD Woody]

Its easy to talk about American values when all you have ever done in your life is go to school, eat at chik-fil-a and post on the Browns Board. Its another when you are fighting these scumbags in there shit hole 1000 ad countries.

 

1) I graduated and am working

2) How does "you just don't understand man!" Work as an excuse for torture?

 

 

Why is it ok for us to ignore everything our country stands for?

[sadbrownsfan]

funny you should mention that, some EU bod suggests that after this, Bush/Cheney might have a case to answer for war crimes. And in fairness, if the US is a fully paid up member of the geneva convention, he may have a point.

 

I saw a similar argument, though I really doubt anyone would risk losing us as an ally\supporter\trade partner to take it that far.

 

edit-link to article http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/10/un-us-torture_n_6300864.html

[The Cysko Kid]

Pretty sure terrorists don't fall under the Geneva accords anyways. I highly doubt we'd torture iraqi army regulars

[DieHardBrownsFan]

funny you should mention that, some EU bod suggests that after this, Bush/Cheney might have a case to answer for war crimes. And in fairness, if the US is a fully paid up member of the geneva convention, he may have a point.

Right. That stands a snowballs chance in hell.

[Westside Steve]

 

I would "assume" since this is information involving a recent event, that some information must remain classified(to protect people who may still be in the field or recently retired) unless it moves to a criminal court(or on the very off chance an international court) that information should remain classified till it reaches the standard expiration date(think 50 years).

Certainly a possibility. Also IMO a possibility is that Democrats and Republicans we're all pretty much on the same page and now posturing for political purposes.

 

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

OUTRAGEOUS RPT: ISIS Trying to Sell James Foley's Remains for $1M

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Dec 11, 2014 // 3:30pm

As seen on Shepard Smith Reporting

ISIS is reportedly trying to sell the body of beheaded journalist James Foley for $1 million.

An international Buzzfeed reporter cites sources who are allegedly seeking to middleman negotiations.

According to the report, ISIS wants to sell Foley’s body to his parents or the U.S. government, and the terror group is trying to present the offer as an act of mercy.

Foley appeared in the terror group’s first beheading video back in August.

Read more from Buzzfeed.com:

If true, the attempted sale would highlight the ruthlessness behind the hostage-taking enterprise that has provided ISIS with deep reservoirs of funds and publicity — as well as the group’s cold calculation as it works to raise more cash.

At one point early this year, ISIS held 23 Western hostages in Syria. Fifteen Europeans were freed as governments reportedly paid millions of dollars in ransoms, but the British and American hostages remained. Both governments refuse to negotiate for hostages or to allow families to pay ransoms. In the months since Foley’s death, ISIS has released videotaped executions of the U.S. journalist Steven Sotloff, the British aid worker Alan Henning, and the U.S. aid worker Peter Kassig. British journalist John Cantlie and a U.S. woman, a 26-year-old aid worker, remain in ISIS hands.

All three of the sources seeking to act as middlemen in a deal with the secretive extremists have been granted anonymity to protect their safety.

One, a former Syrian rebel fighter, has ties to ISIS commanders dating to the early stages of Syria’s civil war. He said he has served as an intermediary in hostage negotiations with Jabhat al-Nusra, the Syrian branch of al-Qaeda, and with ISIS. One day this fall, to prove his bona fides in the murky trade, he opened his iPhone to display unpublished videos of Western hostages in Nusra’s custody.

This former rebel said he was approached by an ISIS leader who asked him to find a channel to either the U.S. government or Foley’s family. Like the other sources, he noted a price of $1 million and the promise of DNA. “They ask for $1 million, and they will send DNA to Turkey, but they want the money first,” he said. “They will not give the DNA without the money.”

He claimed his motivation was to help the grieving family find closure, calling his work “a humanity case.”

Another intermediary, a businessman who has sought to use his own ISIS connections to facilitate hostage deals in the past, was candid about his goals: “This is business.”

[Legacy Fan]

There's a significant difference in the quality & type of info gathered from a "fear of pain/death" tactic (interrogation) and "use of pain" tactic (torture). The "studies" denouncing the use of torture refer to the latter, not the former. Politcal blog articles crying over torture will also obfuscate that distinction.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

1) I graduated and am working

2) How does "you just don't understand man!" Work as an excuse for torture?

 

 

Why is it ok for us to ignore everything our country stands for?

It wasn't torture. It was enhanced interrogation. Torture is I cut one of your fingers/toes/legs off until you tell me what you have. I kill your family in front of you one by one. Not water boarding. Or being made to strip naked and stand on one foot. But I wouldn't expect some college boy/cube warrior to understand that.

[Westside Steve]

It wasn't torture. It was enhanced interrogation. Torture is I cut one of your fingers/toes/legs off until you tell me what you have. I kill your family in front of you one by one. Not water boarding. Or being made to strip naked and stand on one foot. But I wouldn't expect some college boy/cube warrior to understand that.

I think we're playing word games here. I'd say any infliction of severe physical discomfort could easily enough he called torture. That doesn't change the fact that I think it should be a tool if the information can save lives. Human nature unfortunately meaning the possibility of somebody going overboard should be tightly monitored.

 

WSS

[The Cysko Kid]

In the olden days they would skin your kids alive in front of you. I'll take the waterboard.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I think we're playing word games here. I'd say any infliction of severe physical discomfort could easily enough he called torture. That doesn't change the fact that I think it should be a tool if the information can save lives. Human nature unfortunately meaning the possibility of somebody going overboard should be tightly monitored.

 

WSS

I disagree. Physical discomfort is not torture. Even severe. Torture is beyond discomfort. It is agonizing pain, loss of limb or eyesight.

[Westside Steve]

Well I think we are talking semantics here. Severe physical pain is the dictionary definition and I guess people have different thresholds.

WSS

[sadbrownsfan]

You can define it however you want.

 

This is how it is defined internationally according to the UN Convention Against Torture(US signed in 88 and ratified this in the 94) http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

 

 

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

[LogicIsForSquares]

Those UN treaties are basically toilet paper. I wish we would quit pretending like it matters. If one of the big boys in the UN does something wrong, the rest of them can only bitch about it and nothing more.

[MLD Woody]

It wasn't torture. It was enhanced interrogation. Torture is I cut one of your fingers/toes/legs off until you tell me what you have. I kill your family in front of you one by one. Not water boarding. Or being made to strip naked and stand on one foot. But I wouldn't expect some college boy/cube warrior to understand that.

 

Call it whatever you want. The question you need to answer, is it illegal for us to do to our own citizens? If so, then why is it ok to do it to others? How are we going to talk about our great freedom and constitution, and then ignore it when it suits us?

 

All that does is open up a window for the slippery slopes everyone here likes to talk about.

 

 

 

 

A man could shoot up a kindergarten, and then walk out and surrender. If your kid was killed and you go up to this man and shoot him, you are a murderer. You still get charged and still get punished. It doesn't matter how evil your victim was.

[MLD Woody]

In the olden days they would skin your kids alive in front of you. I'll take the waterboard.

 

So as long as its an improvement over medieval times, it is ok? (orwhayever time period your torture choice is from)

[The Cysko Kid]

You're talking about folks whose society has never progressed from medieval times

[MLD Woody]

You're talking about folks whose society has never progressed from medieval times

And that matter why?

[The Cysko Kid]

Because they expect it I imagine? In any case fuck them. I'm not going to sit around and cry that Khalid Sheik Mohammed and his compatriots got waterboarded. Fuck them and fuck anyone who gives a fuck.