The Gipper Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 Literally every QB you mentioned other than Stafford was drafted before or in the same year as Aaron Rodgers, which is literally why I said it's been a long time. I know you love your history but the game changes quickly, and looking at nearly 15 year old examples in some cases doesn't make a whole lotta sense. I only gave you the #1 overall picks, and only Carr. Winston, Newton, Luck and Bradford started right out. And imo Bradford and Carr should have waited. Your premise went beyond #1 picks, you said ANY first round pick should not wait., yet, except for those 3 and a few others nearly ALL first round QB picks waited some: (Wentz/Flacco/Ryan did not) Lynch full year so far Goff 11 games Mariota 4 games Manziel....what the fuck ever Brigdeport..4 games Bortles...3 games EJ Manual 6 games Griffin 1 game Weeden 1 game Locker full year Gabbert 2 games Ponder 6 games Tebow 13 games Sanchez 1 game Josh Freeman 7 games Quinn full year Vince Young 3 games Leinert 5 games Cutler 11 games Jason Campbell 9 games. Rodgers.....3 years!! OK, some of these sucked so bad they maybe never should have been allowed to start, but that is hindsight. Fact is, even history since Rodgers was drafted, most 1st round QBs had a waiting period. Success if certainly variable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 If you'll look, mine was sarcastic - it was the straw that broke the camel's back in the other thread that caused him to make this one. I know. I laughed. I just don't know why hoorta then took it seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoeticG Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 The Cleveland Browns should just say screw it. Take Trubisky first overall and let the world laugh and say how we wasted the first overall pick on a QB that played for one year. Then we trade up slightly from 12, who cares what it takes to get there but get there. Then you select Leonard Fournette. The world will laugh and say... didn't they learn their lesson when they traded up to select Trent Richardson. So on and so forth. But, the real joke will be on them once the season starts, for the Browns will take the field with a QB that seems to have all the tools and character to be a franchise QB. A guy they can lean on and build around for the next several seasons, sink or swim. With Fournette we will replace our over-achieving 6th round selection 'The Crow' ka ka kaaaa !!! Leonard is no ordinary runningback... that's actually a question I'd like to ask Jim Brown. But we've seen what a GREAT RB like Elliot can do for a football team. I've seen Fournette do some incredible things. There is no reason that his ability would just disappear in the pros, there is no evidence that the NFL will be too big for him. He'd be a pleasure to watch slicing through defenses like a hot 'orange helmet' through butter. We then should consider trading up some from the second round. Our first pick is practically a first rounder as well. Shoot, if even a single player is overdrafted by a team then it truly would be another first rounder. I don't know if we need to trade up but if we did we need to secure the best damn center in the draft. Can't have what happened last year happen again. Fortify that line in front of our new QB and RB combo. Hmmm, that would be 3 rookies in a row huh? C - QB - RB .... I guess it would be pushing it... but from the look of those particular players, I think they could handle it. You may think I'm forgetting about our Defense... well to an extent I am. I think that our Defense is actually a good Defense on paper. I think the players are decent and with a switch to more of a 4-3 we could be okay if we could actually threaten a team with putting some points on the board on Offense. I would like that CB King to move to Safety, I think he would be like an Ed Reed by 2020. We should actually take Jourdan Lewis and Kevin King as well. If anybody doesn't think that we have the ability to secure the above players... let me assure you that we do. It can be done. We have the resources now we just need the want to. Upgrading the Offense and upgrading the backend of the Defensive Secondary would do wonders for this team. If we did what I just said there wouldn't be any reason the Browns couldn't win 8-10 games next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 I only gave you the #1 overall picks, and only Carr. Winston, Newton, Luck and Bradford started right out. And imo Bradford and Carr should have waited. Your premise went beyond #1 picks, you said ANY first round pick should not wait., yet, except for those 3 and a few others nearly ALL first round QB picks waited some: (Wentz/Flacco/Ryan did not) Lynch full year so far Goff 11 games Mariota 4 games Manziel....what the fuck ever Brigdeport..4 games Bortles...3 games EJ Manual 6 games Griffin 1 game Weeden 1 game Locker full year Gabbert 2 games Ponder 6 games Tebow 13 games Sanchez 1 game Josh Freeman 7 games Quinn full year Vince Young 3 games Leinert 5 games Cutler 11 games Jason Campbell 9 games. Rodgers.....3 years!! OK, some of these sucked so bad they maybe never should have been allowed to start, but that is hindsight. Fact is, even history since Rodgers was drafted, most 1st round QBs had a waiting period. Success if certainly variable. Some issues with your stats here. Just at first glance: Mariotta started week 1 year 1 for Titans Weeden started week 1 year 1 for Cleveland RG III started week 1 year 1 for Washington Mark Sanchez started week 1 year 1 for the Jets And Rodgers and Eli Manning were both waiting behind HOF QB. Again my question is if a guy is taken 1st overall and can't beat out the 4 QB stiffs we have on our team, then he sucks and shouldn't be drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin J Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 The more I think about it and the more I see of him, Rueben Foster should be in the conversation for #1. This guy will have a Ray Lewis/ Luke Kuechly type career if he stays healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 Phil Savage tweeted. . . FYI, I can confirm that @DeshaunWatson4 will not be participating in the 68th Annual #REESES @seniorbowl. Players begin arriving on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Some issues with your stats here. Just at first glance: Mariotta started week 1 year 1 for Titans Weeden started week 1 year 1 for Cleveland RG III started week 1 year 1 for Washington Mark Sanchez started week 1 year 1 for the Jets Stems from just looking at their career summaries in PFR, seeing <16 games played, and assuming the missing game was Week 1, rather than taking the time to look at the game logs. When there's an argument to be rejoined, you can't expect Gip to be accurate. It's all about the argument. Information is incidental. It's why I went full "ignore". The memory of Wheezy's, Week-1 debut vs. Philly, and his 5-ish game rating, is still burned into my brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Stems from just looking at their career summaries in PFR, seeing <16 games played, and assuming the missing game was Week 1, rather than taking the time to look at the game logs. When there's an argument to be rejoined, you can't expect Gip to be accurate. It's all about the argument. Information is incidental. It's why I went full "ignore". The memory of Wheezy's, Week-1 debut vs. Philly, and his 5-ish game rating, is still burned into my brain. Saw that game with my own eyes.....watched all 4 interceptions that day. Watched Craig Robertson drop a game clinching interception as well. We thought Trent Richardson was a hall of famer after that game when he plowed into that poor eagles defender and knocked his helmet off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 The more I think about it and the more I see of him, Rueben Foster should be in the conversation for #1. This guy will have a Ray Lewis/ Luke Kuechly type career if he stays healthy. While I don't agree with #1 overall, I do agree he is one hellofa player. Unfortunately I think he is gone before #12, so the question becomes whether we think he is worth trading up to get or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yeah I'm not sure why they upset people so much. Especially when TCPO posts one as the first comment and Hoorta is cool with it. Huh? If you noticed the computer grades were removed. See below for my rational. If you'll look, mine was sarcastic - it was the straw that broke the camel's back in the other thread that caused him to make this one. Exactly. I know. I laughed. I just don't know why hoorta then took it seriously. I've only closed a couple threads- the original was getting too long in the first place- and secondly was getting WAY off topic with the computer simulations. If you want to know where I'm coming from- I don't play Madden either. It was like- gee, if I play the computer simulation 100 times, I can come up with the coolest draft ever. Obsessive to the point like guys playing pinball or Pac Man who won't quit until they beat the high score, or at least come close. Sorry if some posters think I'm being a wet blanket spoiling their fun. Heck- we're not even into the East- West Shrine Game or Senior Bowl, not to mention the Combine- is that computer smart enough to take that into account? Tour sort of got POed at me for posting that ridiculous draft- but I don't need a computer to create an ultimate fantasy draft for the Browns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoeticG Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Not to criticize but I think running the computer simulation about a hundred time(probably way more) is exactly what our analytical FO is doing at this exact moment. That first pick game is constantly upgraded with the latest up to date ranking on players... I've watched Jake Butt go from being a first round consideration to a late day 3 selection. Marcus Williams went from a day 1 to day 2... It is a good way to determine what team needs are, who is going to be selected and where approximately. It is no doubt going to change up until draft day but as of now that is the information that is currently available... what else do we have to go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Not to criticize but I think running the computer simulation about a hundred time(probably way more) is exactly what our analytical FO is doing at this exact moment. That first pick game is constantly upgraded with the latest up to date ranking on players... I've watched Jake Butt go from being a first round consideration to a late day 3 selection. Marcus Williams went from a day 1 to day 2... It is a good way to determine what team needs are, who is going to be selected and where approximately. It is no doubt going to change up until draft day but as of now that is the information that is currently available... what else do we have to go on? At this point- it's strictly a "Beauty Contest" just like the weekly NFL Power Rankings are. LOL, hey- how 'bout those Cowboys now? The stuff you mentioned is pure speculation, by some draftnicks who may or may not know any more than you or me. Doesn't take much to have a blog, or write for Bleacher Report. Just like the goober having Wyoming's Josh Allen as a top 3 pick. Analytics is way more than computer simulations, just part of it. Is the computer game going into the depth most front offices are going? I doubt it. Doesn't have the scouting reports either. There's things like interviews and background checks. Doubtless Manziel scored high on the computer part- too bad the Browns didn't research the character part thoroughly enough. Feed a computer incomplete or faulty data, you're going to get incomplete or faulty output. So if you enjoy that game, knock yourself out - in the other thread. Just remember it's not worth the powder to blow it to hell come the end of April. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoeticG Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Trubisky Fournette Hooker Foster Garrett Allen Elflein Pocic King I'm hoping for at least 3 of these players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 The more I think about it and the more I see of him, Rueben Foster should be in the conversation for #1. This guy will have a Ray Lewis/ Luke Kuechly type career if he stays healthy. Agreed, unfortunately. I miss the days when we can get him at 12. Let me dust off the time machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Some issues with your stats here. Just at first glance: Mariotta started week 1 year 1 for Titans Weeden started week 1 year 1 for Cleveland RG III started week 1 year 1 for Washington Mark Sanchez started week 1 year 1 for the Jets These guys then either got hurt or were benched later in their rookie year, since they didn't play the whole year. And Rodgers and Eli Manning were both waiting behind HOF QB. Again my question is if a guy is taken 1st overall and can't beat out the 4 QB stiffs we have on our team, then he sucks and shouldn't be drafted. Well, I agree with that to a point. The point is: even though it is clear that the rookie QB is by far more talented, it still may not hurt to let him sit a few games to get the feel for what it is to be a "Pro". Now, sure, maybe many can handle it....and I am not saying that if the Browns take a guy #1 that he could not handle it, I just don't oppose the concept of letting a kid get the feel for the game a bit by observing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Stems from just looking at their career summaries in PFR, seeing <16 games played, and assuming the missing game was Week 1, rather than taking the time to look at the game logs. When there's an argument to be rejoined, you can't expect Gip to be accurate. It's all about the argument. Information is incidental. It's why I went full "ignore". The memory of Wheezy's, Week-1 debut vs. Philly, and his 5-ish game rating, is still burned into my brain. I spend enough time looking stuff up. More than any other mother fucker on here. (Oh, look, I cursed...don't cry) I get more data right here than anyone else..... If I miss on a thing or two, so what. Why is your pussy hurt over it? I will be glad to spend all this time you want me too research every single data point I ever make. Just pay me my hourly rate. It seems to me that you are more interested in trying to find some minutiae of a mistake that I may have made than having a cogent conversation about it. I guess I could do the same to you....play GOTCHA...".You got something silly wrong you asshole. Aha....it makes me feel so much better about myself. God praise me because I found Tour making a mistake" hallelujah!! (see how stupid that is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark O Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Some issues with your stats here. Just at first glance: Mariotta started week 1 year 1 for Titans Weeden started week 1 year 1 for Cleveland RG III started week 1 year 1 for Washington Mark Sanchez started week 1 year 1 for the Jets These guys then either got hurt or were benched later in their rookie year, since they didn't play the whole year. And Rodgers and Eli Manning were both waiting behind HOF QB. Again my question is if a guy is taken 1st overall and can't beat out the 4 QB stiffs we have on our team, then he sucks and shouldn't be drafted. Well, I agree with that to a point. The point is: even though it is clear that the rookie QB is by far more talented, it still may not hurt to let him sit a few games to get the feel for what it is to be a "Pro". Now, sure, maybe many can handle it....and I am not saying that if the Browns take a guy #1 that he could not handle it, I just don't oppose the concept of letting a kid get the feel for the game a bit by observing. Im guessing it was injury in every case of the ones I mentioned not playing the whole year. These top guys coming out this year should be doing nothing more from the time their bowl game ended till the time training camp opens getting a "feel for what it is to be a pro". The only one of the 4 stiffs we have I would be remotely comfortable with a top draft pick sitting behind is McCown and that's only because I think he's the only one who fits your description of knowing what it is to be a pro QB. He's not very good, but he's had a long career and seems to get the mental side of being a pro QB. What is any one of these guys going to learn from Kessler or Hogan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Im guessing it was injury in every case of the ones I mentioned not playing the whole year. These top guys coming out this year should be doing nothing more from the time their bowl game ended till the time training camp opens getting a "feel for what it is to be a pro". The only one of the 4 stiffs we have I would be remotely comfortable with a top draft pick sitting behind is McCown and that's only because I think he's the only one who fits your description of knowing what it is to be a pro QB. He's not very good, but he's had a long career and seems to get the mental side of being a pro QB. What is any one of these guys going to learn from Kessler or Hogan? Well, I am not sure that what I am talking about necessarily is that a new QB should be able "learn" anything from these guys. I agree that they probably wouldn't. I think I am just talking about getting a general feel for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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