2017 Draft OL Evaluations

[Tour2ma]

Tis the season so let's light this candle...

 

I'm starting with the Centers this season, then OGs and then OTs. Why? Basically our OL need is setting the order by where the candidates our top need, Center, are likely to have been playing in 2016.

 

As usual:

• I'll use NFLDraftScouts' rankings to aid in picking the prospects and DraftBreakdown as the primary source for cutdowns.
• I'll insert links in this running list of prospects to their individually posted write-up.
• If you have a prospect at which you'd like me to look ro a game you think I need to see, then feel free to ask/recommend and I'll try to get to him/it.
• Your takes are always welcome.

New this year will be inclusion of my raw, game notes following my player summary.

 

Centers

1. Ethan Pocic LSU 6'6 307 (Wis/JcksnSt/Missou/Bama) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&do=findComment&comment=678741
2. Pat Elflein OSU 6'2 300 (BGSU/Rutgers/Mich/Clemson) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&do=findComment&comment=679601
3. Tyler Orovsky WVU 6'3 292 (Mizzou/BYU/TxTech) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&do=findComment&comment=679840
4. Kyle Fuller Baylor 6'4 306
5. Jon Toth UK 6'5 308 (NMSt/BAMA/FLA/Missou) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&page=2&do=findComment&comment=680331

OGs

1. Dan Feeney Ind 6'4 304
2. Forrest Lamp W.KY 6'4 305 (Bama/LaTech/LaTech/Memphis) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&page=2&do=findComment&comment=680670
3. Dorian Johnson Pitt 6'5 300 (PSU/@OSU/VaTech/@Clem) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&page=2&do=findComment&comment=682583
4. Dion Dawkins Temple 6'4 317 (@PSU/@Memphis/SFU/UCin) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&do=findComment&comment=682137
5. ... and more...

OTs

1. Ryan Ramczyk Wis 6'5 314
2. Cam Robinson BAMA 6'6 310
3. Garett Boles Utah 6'5 296
4. Taylor Moton W.Mich 6'5 330
5. Will Holden Vandy 6'7 311 (2015 TN) - http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=45684&page=2&do=findComment&comment=696331
6. ... and more...

[Tour2ma]

Ethan Pocic LSU 6'6 307 Wis/JcksnSt/Missou/Bama -

 

Summary:

Ethan moves, but doesn't move people... a leaner, not a popping driver... rarely see him win a battle, but rarely see him lose one either. He seems best suited for a ZBS team... put another way, he's not a good fit for the Browns.

 

As for him in the ZBS... he looks (and I hesitate to say this) "Cam-like". He runs around with little anticipation on where his defender will be or will come from and so he ends up reaching a lot and holding some. Amazingly I did not see him called even one time for holding, but he held a few times a game... most subtly (a good thing) but a couple pretty blatant ones.

 

I saw little evidence of him line-calling. Here I am taking evidence as squatting and pointing side-to-side, and then seeing OGs relaying something to the OTs as we often see the top NFL Centers do (Mack jumps immediately to mind). I did often see Pocic turn to an OG, talk and sometimes point, but that usually indicates a simpler, double-team conversation.

 

Mayock wondered aloud at the Sr. Bowl whether he might be best suited for RT in the NFL. Ethan's body says "yes", but his agility says "not so fast, Mike."

 

2016 Game Raw Notes (Warning: they may or may not make sense.):

@Wis Wk 1: ZBS... slo start, little control, not getting angles, decnt discipline; Q2 1st driving block, 1st nice PassPro, seeing back up 1-tech DT, still whiffing at 2nd level, has head on swivle in PassPro, missed 1st A gap blitz, 4Q screen whiff

 

JkSt Wk 2: more power scheme vs. beefy DTs, anchoring issues early - popping up, no drive but angles, DTs punching & getting hands on, no punch - bear hugging; Q2 starting to extend arms, issues sifting thru traffic, getting popped - not popping, more react than anticipate, goalline got submarined; Q3: In passpro cntact then push off but push offs move him back not the DT, bounced off stubby ILB,

 

Missou Wk 5: DT powered thru 1st play, got "retreated" on move in roll-out, better anchor on move, missed passpro pull assignment in PAP, starting gain cntrol of DT, beat to left by DT cutting across face, pull left and rev sealed but with entended arm (hold) as overran pursuit, beaten across face again by rushing DT, gathered himself to drive block; Q2: (stopped watching)

 

Bama Wk 10 after Bye: more of same, Allen ripped him out of a dbl-team to the ground prompting first lol, (cutdown stopped well-short of halftime)

 

Bottom line:

I can't see Pocic going Day1. Day 2? Probably... If he's a polished line-caller and/or a primarily ZBS team really thinks he also has OT potential, then his 5-position versatility, if not proficiency, ups his value and R2 is possible. Otherwise R3 feels right.

[RoyceRolls]

I'm interested to see how all the "dime a dozen fat asses" shake out under your scrutiny. While I am a proponent of a strong offensive line, if the browns pick one in the first 2 rounds it'll be time to make a bee line for the bathroom. Getting Bitonio back healthy will be a bigger impact than any draft pick. Also, of all the young talent along the o line, Coleman, Drango, Reiter, etc. someone has to develop into a solid contributor.

 

Im so tired of the offensive line complainers. Yeah, they didn't play well last year, but this o line dealing with a key injury still was at least middle of the road (16 teams in the league allowed more pressures). I'm just ready to have a top 10 QB/defense.

[Tour2ma]

I hear you, RR...

 

There are always a dozen "fat-asses" taken Day 3 and another dozen post-draft all in the hope of finding cheap, functional depth or even the occasional starter. It's the same sifting process as for QBs, but at less cost.

 

Historically I have found one or two every year going through this exercise that prove out... and another couple that do not. While this year is likely no different, it's not a good sign that I don't see "it" in one of the most highly promoted interior players in this draft which surprised me since I liked what I saw of Pocic Sr. Bowl week.

 

I'm used to that at OT, where I have started in years past. In fact I think I've dissented on the "top OT" three years running, but not the interior prospects. I often end up liking another interior prospects value better that the top guy, but I usually like the top guy's talent best. It does not look like this will be the case this year.

 

We shall see...

[wargograw]

Tour, they don't call holding in the SEC FYI.

[wargograw]

Can you add a round grade for these guys? You seem pretty critical of Pocic. So where would you take him, if anywhere?

[TexasAg1969]

Tour, they don't call holding in the SEC FYI.

 

I agree which is why I think Garrett's stats are undervalued. Tons of no calls when horsecollared & necktackled from behind as he went around OTs.

[Tour2ma]

Can you add a round grade for these guys? You seem pretty critical of Pocic. So where would you take him, if anywhere?

 

Can I? Yes... Would it be worth a shit? Unlikely... but that's never stopped me before.

 

I can't see Pocic going Day1. Day 2? Probably... If he's a polished line-caller and/or a primarily ZBS team really thinks he also has OT potential, then his 5-position versatility, if not proficiency, ups his value and R2 is possible. Otherwise R3 feels right.

 

I did not address line-calling in my write-up, but I saw little evidence of it. Here I am taking evidence as squatting and pointing side-to-side, and then seeing OGs relaying something to the OTs as we often see the top NFL Centers do (Mack jumps immediately to mind). I did often see Pocic turn to an OG, talk and sometimes point, but that usually indicates a simpler, double-team conversation.

 

I'll copy/paste/edit the above into his evaluation post.

[Tour2ma]

Pat Elflein OSU 6'2 300 BGSU/Rutgers/Mich/Clemson - Distractions: LG #73

 

Summary:

This was a tough one. Some seasons are cruise ships; some are roller coaster rides, here's a ski slope.

 

First, let me say that I was very critical in posts of Elflein's prospects based upon his showing in the Nat Champ semi. That take was both justified and not justified meaning he's not as bad as I thought, but he has issues.

 

Against lesser competition, BGSU and Rutgers, Pat was dominant in every way. More than simply out-muscling or out tech'ing his opposites he showed a control, anticipation and poise that was astounding. He not only maintained position and won battles, but calmly put himself in position to make play after play after play at the 2nd level. He showed discipline in PassPro and aggression in Run Blocking with a little "nasty" in the forms of playing to the echo of the whistle and getting even on the very next snap every time his opposite did something untoward.

 

Speaking of snaps... they were crisp and on target game after game. Out of 100+ viewed I saw one that was weak and low. Also noted few uncalled holds. Pat's only penalty was for double-clutching a snap in the Nat Champ semi.

 

Then the competition level rose.

 

Against UM Pat started great. Mich had better athletes, or at least stronger ones, but early he handled them well. Then UM turned up the heat; they got much more aggressive on D, and maybe more importantly they relentlessly starting rotating their DL, turning the tide of the game and his evaluation. Still I never got the feeling he was outclassed by UM. They did not have the speed to match their power to outclass him.But they did wear him down.

 

The increased Defensive pressure starting cracking Pat's judgement, overrunning assignments, etc., but it was fatigue that sent his tech south. By game's end he was dipping his head and waist bending. Even his stance changed. Against BGSU I praised his flat spine angle over the ball without a hint of change be the call run or pass. Late first half I noted he was now angling up more for pass calls than run calls, i.e., he was tipping plays. His play picked up after halftime rest, but it was clear that by game's end he was gassed. I even found myself wondering if Urban would have been wise to rotate Pat out for a series, or at least a few plays, here and there. Not something you normally think about with OL, but it looked to be worth considering.

 

Against Clemson... well they had the speed to match their power... and they rotated DL early and often. From the start it was clear that Pat was trying to move faster even when assigned players who weren't truly fast, like Boulware, and the precision of his play suffered for it. However, Elf's real breakdown began in 2Q with the emergence of the "gator arms" I saw when I watched the game live. Then fatigue set in sometime in 3Q until finally the 4Q INT seemed to break his spirit.

 

2016 Game Raw Notes -

BGSU Wk 1: decisive fire-outs with quickness off ball, flows well in ZBS, always hits someone, good anticipation to 2nd level flow, doesn't "rush" to 2nd level... controlled movement is extending/using arms, anchors, not being challenged by D... time to move on??? 1st miss, nice drive in short sit, 2nd pull in passpro and 1st sign of miss (chip DL diverted from delayed blitzer), nice discipline halted DL chase to p/u MLB blitz (TD pass), 1st budge by looping DE; Q2 - 1st run stuff by MLB, roughed up DB thru echo of whistle nice, 1st chip & release to L2 very nicely done, FAST ACCURRAte snaps from great posture stance, no R/P tipping, 1st run pull looked "rushed" stumbled and fell, really solid passpro tech knee bend sitting, sifted thru OL traffic to get block 10 yds downfield, ... moving on for real this time...

 

Rutgers Wk 5 (off Bye): clear from play 1 better comp level - stalemate, nice dbl-team drive, chip&quick to L2 w/ anticipation, too high in run block beaten, pull and 1st uncertain dance missing block, big driving run block on NT levered up and push little punch, nice passpro chop steps, passpro discipline waiting for looping DE, GREAT chip left - 2nd level seal right BIG HOLE, quick cutoff of 2nd level flow to sweep; Q2 - head on swivel passpro, met 2d level LB with 1st real punch, good passpor rxn to NT spin, one of few clear line call sits, mid-2nd starting to tire?, good feel for angle vs DT, quick cut-off of NT flow to sweep left, high passpro lost anchor to DT putting hands high under chin---next play BIG dbl-punch payback!, blitz whiff; 2nd HALF: man this is a good unit! SMOOTHLY p/u'd inside game in quick set passpro... may have to look at RG Billy Price #54 --- time to move on.

 

Mich Wk 13: pull and great judgement to bypass DLs coming free to turn upfield and reverse seal 2nd lvl, run drove DT off line and sealed 399 Godin, handled #73 Hurst, quick hit on gap shot to left, overran seal on misdirection run, almost rolled up, semi-controlled ZBS, overran blitzing CB on pull left;

Q2 - bad angle to 2nd lvl (Mich aggression increasing), pull left passpro over commit to outside, dipped head in attempted dbl-team got chucked, repeat pull-left passpro caution to repeat over-commit left edge vulnerable beat by Taco sack, fell off dbl, 3rd&short stymie, missed Hurst quick step across face, anchor, chip & 2nd, pull rt passpro neut'd soft Taco, ditto prev play, hit gap shot on own 2, **higher snap posture than vs. BGSU** tipping pass???, whiff quick blitz LB to left gap, p/u blitz delay stunt same LB to left, pull left (seem slower) but buried forcing CB, solo buried sub-DT after intial dbl, taco trouble but neut'd, nice anchor vs. another sub, patient read of LB on read-opt rxn, soft tech let DT fall on face on passpro - good "feel", good passpro prep to rec DT loop, got high block when sub'd in GL dive, stoned looping Glasgow, good ride of passpro gap shot to rt., poorer rxn to shot to left gap -- sack, nice lead on QB draw no block but drew DB's attn, drving dbl, sub'd in another short-yardage sit, jogged behid assign on sweep right FATIGUE?, lean dip head small DE ran around attempted QB draw block, slipped off run block, head dip in passpro

LATE 4Q DEF TIRED!, DEF CHANGING STANCE POSTURE RUN?PASS NOW, blown up again in shrt-yd sit, fighting but reaching in passpro, jogging escort of QB bail up middle, giving ground in passpro; OT: no rxn to delayed blitz right by him, high but drive on 4th&1, pull left on winning TD no blk but stayed available to lead way... did not waste block did not stop.

 

Clemson FBS Semi: too quick to 2nd whiff Boulware, driving chip & 2nd, head swivel passpro, pull rt found DB, good hand fight w/frosh DT, nice slding ZBS run option passpro, overran Boulware again, pull rt & near whiff on shooting DE, head dip waist bend passpro but recov'd, lock and turn DT at POA, fighting anchor, pull rt and semi-whiff, pull rt and odd angle on swing pass rt, **A LOT OF CLEM SUBBING**, no rxn to obvious A gap DB blitz to rt???;
Q2: PEN-dbl clutched snap, disp passpro position, low weak snap, **going gator armed**, blown back receiving Watson charge in passpro, latch and pancake DT in passpro, semi-neut Watkins batted pass, drive turn Wat run block, , , , ran thru 2nd level without hitting anyone, , , ,
Q4: pull rt nice kickout, , gator seal, DT game blown up and ripped by Wat - Sack, next play gutted #54 then helped stop INT return with good angle, starting to be handled by lesser DTs, buckled, dipped ripped and whiffed, ** tired or emotionally down???** looks "sapped"** time to stop...

Bottom Line:

Pat has the potential to be the power run-game Center we need with enough mobility for the occasional ZBS call and second level work. At his best he reminded me of Alex. At his worst? The better one of the two, non-Greco, forgettable subs, that tried to fill Alex's shoes in 2014.

 

While I like Pat's odds of increasing his stamina. I have a little more concern about his adaptation to NFL-level speed. I am interested in his measurements and drills at the Combine... especially his agility drills.

 

The early Pat Elflein was a clear, Day 1, worthy pick. The late Pat? Day 2... Where would I consider taking him? Not at #33... more like our 2nd R2 pick and certainly by our #65 pick. Again this is pending how he looks at the Combine and how the rest of the Center and OL classes look.

 

But with a name like ELF-lein, he just may be our destiny.

 

[Tour2ma]

This one is going to be a lot shorter...

 

Tyler Orovsky WVU 6'3 292 (Missou/BYU/TxTech) - not a great mix; Diversions: Shell (dances like Bell); White WR hands & tough

 

Summary: Toughest evaluation yet due to WVU's offensive "style" and competition level against three schools that apparently don't bother to recruit DL. I went in liking Tyler as a sleeper, so I guess I should not have been surprised when his tape nearly put me to sleep.

 

Here are the basics:

• snaps - they are slow, they are lobs between the legs with the look of the side-saddle ones we made as kids in out pickup, touch games. Worse yet they are in rhythm... look between legs... raise head... snap ball. Both can be corrected and they will have to be or his entire OL will start a step behind a NFL DL.
• line calls - I did not note a single one.
• burst - thin I saw signs of it... twice.
• speed - no...
• agility - never moved fast enough to judge it.

Aside from snap issues there just was little to judge him upon. WVU's O features quick, boundary passes and inside ZBS runs. That's the main course. Worse yet Tyler rarely does anything alone; it's just dbl-team after dbl-team in run and PassPro. Additionally he did not see a 0-tech NT until the TxTech game and then more often than not the NT lined up nearly 2-yd off the ball. Holy shades of the Landry "flex".

 

Never saw him really "pop" anyone, but he did throw more cut blocks than either Pocic or Elf. First two games they were at DL's feet (?), but in 3rd he raised the target to their thigh... more effective. Despite the cuts I saw no nasty.

 

Also never saw him pull laterally or go more than 2 yds downfield except once when he jogged out to lead a screen right, jogged downfield ten yards and got in the way of a DB.

 

So is there any there there? Maybe... There was a glimpse of power in one goalline situation when he was tip of the spear on a sneak for a TD (called back for illegal formation). There was also one dime look where the DT lined up at RDE and looped head-on into Tyler with a reasonable amount of speed and Tyler barely budged. Two glimpses does not a resume make...

 

His 2015 opposition does not look like it will be any more revealing. Hopefully at least one more 2016 game gets cutdown. WVU played Oklahoma later and faced The "U" in their bowl game.

 

2016 Games:
Missou Wk 1: snaps lack veloc, good posture, timeable, workmanlike, good solid midfield work but being tested at GL,starting to be juked more by DL; Q2: few ind assignments w/ no 2nd level to judge and lazy DTs so not learning much... move on.

BYU Wk 4 (after Bye): same slow timeable snaps but looks a little quicker off ball, nnice drive block in GL, decent passpro tech, scrn rt looked slo, NT held off w/ one arm, **so many quick wide passes**, slo rxn to LB gap shot, small radius; Q3: zzzzz...

TxTech Wk 7 (after 2nd Bye): more NT on nose, stuffed DT gaming in from out, quicker to Nt offline, seeing 0-tech NT 2 yds off LOS, **If this was a fight, they'd stop it... WVU is running at will**, Skipping ahead... nothing to eval... short wide throws and inside ZBS.

Bottom Line: Right now Tyler is a Day 3 prospect. Day 3 is Rounds 4 thru 7. In which one should he be considered? As of now in Tyler's case, I think that's more a question of position demand. More tape, which real scouts surely have, should hopefully allow them a better basis for projecting Tyler at the next level.

[tiamat63]

I'm not sure about anyone else put I've put good stock in reading these evals.

 

Surprised at the Pocic thoughts considering how highly mentioned he was on this board it seems in mock draft.

 

Not surprised with the eval on Elflein.

[Tour2ma]

Thanks, tia...

 

Was just comparing my notes on Pocic and Olov vs. Missou. Can't swear they faced the same DLmen, but if they did, then that is a point in favor of Olov as he fared better. Not sure what that adds to/ takes away from the case for either, but it's what the notes say.

[Flugel]

Great write ups Tour! Thanks for all the time you put into those for us. I got a kick out of your sleeper comment regarding Orovsky.

 

I didn't get many chances to see Pocic so I really enjoyed your eval of him. Looking at his height, a lot of your observations aren't surprising like being a leaner. I'm guessing that also makes him prone to overextending with his feet too close together. While I don't like stereotyping guys, I have a feeling he'd struggle to consistently bend well enough to win a lot of leverage wars against the more compact 340 lb powerhouses that will line up over him/offset.

 

I think you recently told someone else that the path to finding our next Center could come out of the pool of OGs or OTs. That's a good point considering there's no guarantee Elflein will be on our doorstep.

[Tour2ma]

Thanks, Flugs..

 

Not sure I need to be, but to be sure I am clear (or clearer), I did not mean that Pocic is a "leaner" in the sense of a waist bender. Better word may be the he lays on opponents, almost envelops them... or maybe "leans into" as opposed to "delivers blows".

 

I did not note a particular problem with his feet being too close, but may have missed it. I do know that he got caught up/ tripped up more in the phone booth than either Elf or Orv with Elf the one that managed to stay amazingly "clean" through the footage I watched.

[BrownB499]

Love reading these Tour!

 

I'd be interested in see your assessment of Toth....I thought his game vs, Bama was solid...Where as Pocics was meh

[wargograw]

Thanks, Flugs..

 

Not sure I need to be, but to be sure I am clear (or clearer), I did not mean that Pocic is a "leaner" in the sense of a waist bender. Better word may be the he lays on opponents, almost envelops them... or maybe "leans into" as opposed to "delivers blows".

 

I did not note a particular problem with his feet being too close, but may have missed it. I do know that he got caught up/ tripped up more in the phone booth than either Elf or Orv with Elf the one that managed to stay amazingly "clean" through the footage I watched.

Your meaning is what I gleaned from "leaner" originally, FYI.

 

As to your second graf, may be a matter of splits?

[Tour2ma]

Very possibly... splits, stance-width and even scheme... I tend to think the ZBS's choreography sets up OL (and DL) for more tripping.

 

 

Love reading these Tour! I'd be interested in see your assessment of Toth....I thought his game vs, Bama was solid...Where as Pocics was meh

 

Coming up... With Orov disappointing, my sleeper hopes have turned to Toth as well. I fear that if he disappoints, then I'm really going to have to beat the bushes for one.

[wargograw]

He's only a RS sophomore in 2017 Tour, but keep your eye on the C at A&M. Was only a 2 star prospect but was really really solid last year. Game seemed to come easily for him. Not as smooth against some of the elites of course but he also didn't embarrass himself or anything. This year he should be pretty top notch. New OC last year came in and said his jaw dropped when he found out the kid was a freshman (after coach being here awhile already) because he knew the game so well and was so mature.

[Flugel]

Thanks, Flugs..

 

Not sure I need to be, but to be sure I am clear (or clearer), I did not mean that Pocic is a "leaner" in the sense of a waist bender. Better word may be the he lays on opponents, almost envelops them... or maybe "leans into" as opposed to "delivers blows".

 

I did not note a particular problem with his feet being too close, but may have missed it. I do know that he got caught up/ tripped up more in the phone booth than either Elf or Orv with Elf the one that managed to stay amazingly "clean" through the footage I watched.

 

You explained it well. I just wondered if something else might have been relevant so I appreciate your answer.

 

Sometimes guys with sloppy fundamentals tend to bring their feet closer together, which changes their base from a 2 prong support to a 1 prong support. This makes them way easier to shed. I think the bad habit takes place and gets perfected on a 5 man sled in daily practices where sometimes the bigger framed guys with longer legs bring their feet closer together while they lean on the pads hoping to turn it on the guys at the other end. Okie drills can break that habit real fast though.

 

It's interesting to see what habits unfold in the trenches when guys started getting fatigued like pad heights and some of the fundamentals you alluded to in your evaluations.

[Tour2ma]

Yeah... that actually surprised me when I saw Elf gassed to the degree he was. A 3-year starter who barely missed a snap? Getting that gassed?

[Tour2ma]

Jon Toth UK 6'5 308 NMSt/BAMA/FLA/Missou

Distractions: Rest of UK's OL suck pretty hard... FLA D - CB grt pick on bubble scrn; M.Maye solid tkl... Eddie jackson HARD close on scrn,

Summary: Say hello to our leading sleeper candidate in the clubhouse. Not that there are not areas of Jon's game that need work, there are, but he showed one thing none of the Center prospects so far have shown... development. A late season or bowl game against a decent opponent would be an interesting exercise to see if he developed further.

At 6'5 Jon is our 2nd tallest prospect playing the position and he looks it, but does not play like it showing nice knee flex throughout most of his tape. The kid also moves well. The one question I have in his strength. Early I saw some strength questions more or less culminating in a 240-ish pound LB rocking him, but saw no real repeats later on. On the other hand I never saw him walked all the way back into the QBs lap... something I cannot say about his fellow OL.

On the subject of his fellow OL... they did not help the evaluation of Jon... as much because they made him look great by contrast as they did by putting him in impossible positions or dragging down play results by failing at an alarming rate. As a group... and how can I put this constructively... oh, I know... they suck! My God, this is a porous OL everywhere, but Center, and maybe, just maybe, one OG who might be "adequate" at UK. It took me almost a full game to shut off the carnage around Jon play in and play out. They got their starting QB killed, almost literally killed, in the Florida game, a game the starting QB did not finish. And while the other OL not named Jon also seemed to "get better" through the season, they never got good.

But enough about them. Here are the basics on Jon:

• quick, sure snapper... really puts some zip on them, only saw one low one early.
• showed communication with at least OGs and saw a couple relays by OGs.
• pretty quick off the ball as well getting into most non-ZBS, run blocks on the D-side of the LOS or cleanly into his passpro tech before contacted by DL.
• decent reaction to stunts and blitzes, gap shots and moves across face.
• often follows thumping, if not punishing, contact with arm extension in either run or pass block.
• generally sustained blocks, but did quit on a few before the whistle letting defender get in on tackle.
• active, inside hands that often grasp, but do not "hold"... or at least are not easily seen holding.
• generally good movement at controlled pace, but if hurrying, has tendency to overrun 2nd level blocks.

UK seems to favor the inside ZBS as a complement to their read-option, run-pass option, quick pass Offense, but they do run a fair amount of power runs as well. Enough that I came away with no great concerns around Jon's fit with us.

As a team UK was dominated by Florida early in the season. Can't sat the same for Jon even though it was his worst game. Down by over 40 points, Jon and the O as a whole sucked it up and drove for their only TD of the game.

The very next week against a much lesser opponent, NMSt, they fell behind early, but battled back to win in a scorefest of a game. Jon's, and to a lesser degree the entire Offense's, confidence seemed to grow in this game. Just in time for BAMA.

While BAMA exposed the rest of UK's OL for what it was, Jon rose above and acquitted himself quite well holding his own, and then some, vs. the big names BAMA is sending into this year's draft. This included Jon's best play in four tapes, a power chip on Allen and release to Foster at the 2nd level where a small, uncalled grab aided his block there.

Jon is the third Center with Mizzou as a common opponent and I think he easily looked the best of all three holding his own against the sizable, if not supremely talented, beef Mizzou can play at DT. When called upon to do so he had little trouble anchoring where others had trouble. And he showed hand-fighting skills I had not noticed in earlier games.

2016 Games:
FLA Wk 2 (L 7-45): crisp snap, scrn rt cut S 10-yd downfield, low snap p/u stunting DE, sloppy 2nd lvl seal, seal DT rt, chp & 2nd, O passpro chop and hd swivel, chp & blown up by 2L LB, 2L LB stood up; Q2: quick off bal to kick out DE but no drive, no anch vs slanting DT pressure, , dbl'd, OK blk on ins ZBS, stuffed by DT, congested passpro, decent arm push in passpro but no blow, , anch, playing high, got ripped, chp & spot on 2nd, good intial anch, OK passpro but jailbreak everywhere around him;
Q3: dbl, good passpro discipline, DT spin cost leverage, lost in space on draw, active passpro if not effective, tied when needed win on middle scrn, beat by gap shot left but run to rt, lost again, held NT on QB scram, slid rt when LG needed aid; Q4: waltz, nice turn of DT to rt but easy on run left, SUSTAINED driving dbl, **NO QUIT - playing to end in blo-out DOWN 45-0**, chp and on way to 2nd diverted to crashing DE, whiff on draw, lost #3, init run seal but then driven to pile, chp & whiff 2nd **2nd sign of fatigue**, held NT, rev seal DT!, drove DT, kickout RDT in GL - TD... only one of game.

NMSt Wk 3 (W 62-42): easy seal LDT in gap, semi-beat by LDT across face, smooth slide off NT to thump RDT passpro, drv LDT shot across face, scrn left missed chp on blitz to his left, nice set in passpro, quick KEY seal on willing LDT - long TD run, ez hndl of small DL, ditto - long swing to TE TD, fell off ZBS vs small DL, crisp snaps, cut small DL, stmie sm DL, passpro pop of mid-sized DL, bit lost in delay;
Q2: p/u stunt and sust'd good while but stopped too soon, congested passpro, nice seal of willing DT gap shot, nnice slid to LDT, quick to chip LB blitz, quick mmove to RDE in pass set, quick trn to dbl LDT, got away w/ bigtime flinch, kneeflex tech looking good, nice ins ZBS blk - TD run, stood up big RDT, quick dbl in passpro **CONFIDENCE growing**, RB did not set up decent downfield effrt on scrn L, dipped head in passpro pop, quick trn to chp sm DL shot to pulling LG hole, alert bksealon run, nice invite trn of DT, another nice chp DL then trun to key seal 2nd DL, mauled DT w/ nnice inside hold, **seeing linecall evidence** nice blast of DT in gap, stood up and blasted back by DT in GL sit, waltz and called for Holding was inside but did not release jersey when DT turned to pursue Rb already by him;
Q3: LET's move on...

Bama Wk 5 (L 6-34): **looking for Allen matchups** Driving dbl vs 3-man, seald Tomlnsn, missed congested blitz by DB, decent initial drive on Allen but shucked after 2yd, drove Allen, stmied Allen inpasspro, blast dbl on Payne, chp payne needed more, OK passpro, gatorarm dbl on r/p opt, seal run dbl, nnice pu foster blitz then drove and held o call, OK action on scrn; Q2: pu Allen cross face, dbl drv Payne stayd w/, no move Tom, congestd passpro, drv Payne then lost, trpl Allen, unocc passpro, soft rush looked for danger, chp no 2nd get off, stymie Allen and held no call, neut'd Ball, stuffd by Payne, unchall passpro, dbl tom, chp+2nd=bury DB, mosh pit ins ZBS;
Q3: decoy misdir keeper, chp, rocked by blitzing LB Hamilton but recovd, very congested passpro middle, drving dbl on Tom, scrn away, whiff Tom, passpro zone discipline, drving chp on Allen and 2nd seal (hold) on Fostr, soft pass rush, bad initial dip on away slanting Payne but recovd, semi lost in congest passpro, rel 2nd seal on Fstr; Q4: drv dbl, drv pop-push, push chp and 2nd push seal, **seeing back up DL** mauled Frazier... Allen's out... moving on...

Missou Wk 9 (W 35-21): nice retreating hand fight, quick off ball bubble away, got shuckd/trippd, dbl, issues w/ BIG #95, , , found popped LB, found blkd DB on scrn, popped 2nd BIG DL #49, caught D in slant left - duckhead drv on 95 quick hitting run - TD, trn pop chp rel late, semi anch passpro, ate up real fatty #97, nice rev seal RDT, drvn dbl + 2nd, dip hded drv on fatty, middl stmie on draw, fatty neut, easy anch vs fatty; Q2: ez passpro chp & alert, drving pass blk of fatty, neut'd bull... getting bored... no comp.

Bottom line: I see clear value in Jon and think he can start in the NFL. Is he the best Center talent in the draft? No, as of now I would still give that spot to Elf, but Jon's not far behind. I can see Jon sneaking into the Round 3 compensatories, which is a full round higher than NFLDraftScout sees him.

[Tour2ma]

Time for some "OGs"... or rather OTs that are projected to move inside. Surprisingly there are no 2016 cutdown on DS's top OG prospect, Feeney, so he will have to wait. So first up is WKU's Lamp... so without further ado... well, a little more ado since I was really distracted by two of Forrest's teammates...

 

Distractions:

• WR Taywon Taylor (5'11 198) DS projects R3-4 - fast, est'd 4.39 fast, one drop, deep TD, nice ovr should fade catch - TD, nice slant;
• RB Anthony Wales (5'9 194) DS projects UDFA - nifty, shifty, uses/set up blocks well, some power vs. DBs

This first, 2016 interruption of a targeted review is warranted. There's a lot to like in these two. Taylor has "take the lid off" speed and more skills making more than simply a fast guy. And he plays bigger than 5'9. I've starting FirstPicking him in recent days before I even saw his tape and for whatever reason it was a good, if relatively uninformed, decision to do so. nice Day 2 or 3 sleeper pick.

 

But if Taylor is a sleeper then Wales is comatose. He's DraftScouts 37th ranked RB in the draft, if that is deservedly low, then I really need to see those above him. An estimated 40 time of 4.59 might be responsible but you have to see him in action. Very smooth... very versatile... 1000-yd rusher for WKU.

 

OK... now without further etc...

 

Forrest Lamp W.KY 6'4 305 (Bama/@LaTech/LaTech/Memphis)

 

Summary: Lamp was WKU's starting LT in 2016. He worked and impressed both scouts and me in the first Sr. Bowl practice. Unfortunately for all of us he was also hurt early in that practice. The ankle sprain he suffered made his work that day all the more impressive, but it stiffened overnite so we saw no more of him.

 

His first tape was BAMA, WKU's week #2 opponent and he looked OK only being outclassed once by Allen who ripped him to the ground in Q3. Rest of the time he more than handled if not distinguished himself in one-on-one match-ups vs. whomever lined up opposite him.

 

Where he looked out of his depth was the few 2nd level assignments where due to getting tied up and/or insufficient foot speed, he failed to fill his assignment. This was the only tape were his foot speed was a question. Knowing that it was early in the season and how fast the BAMA D was alleviates any concern to some extent, but it's a question that needs further examination.

 

Very early against LaTech, at LaTech, Lamp again looked slow... but then suddenly he did not and never looked so again. What replaced the slow was very close to dominance. Suddenly he was burying DEs, showing hand-fighting skills. Some stunt recognition issues persisted, but more good decisions were noted. He even got pissed after a hand fighting DE head slapped him. The next couple plays were pure, inside-the-rules payback sending a message I think the DE understood.

 

Of course any enthusiasm has to be tempered by the drop in competition level from the defending, 2015 Nat Champs, but LaTech is a respectable, Conf USA member. A foe WKU met again in the Conf USA Championship at season end. Here's the rematch in a nutshell... Much of the same, but even better.

 

Lamp's only lingering issues were occasional lapses in judgements in, or lack reaction to, picking up stunts and blitzes, but some were no-win situations, rather they were a lesser loss one. And he persisted in throwing ineffective cuts at ankles. Otherwise he looked quicker, stronger and more confident than in the regular season meeting.

 

Last up WKU met the 8-4 Memphis Tigers in their bowl appearance. Again Memphis did not make as much noise in 2016 as they have in some recent seasons, but they were a good test... and Lamp dominated. No "nearly" proviso needed this time. This was easily Lamp's best game physically and mentally. He made better decisions and communicated on the fly. The latter displayed in an endzone reply where he touched his LG to alert he to an inside looping edge who the OG then seamlessly picked up as he passed his DT to Lamp. It was very pretty to see.

 

But the best, his best "tell his grandkids someday" story was his rushing TD. As a tackle eligible he retreated and... never mind... you need to see this for yourselves.

https://youtu.be/1iKNeOr2kJI?t=2m24s

 

Game Notes:
Bama Wk 2 (L 10-38): **playing LT** chopping slide into passpro, , neut semi edge, slo to inside gap shot, fail to chp inside gap, lock up on flea, slid in to cut off DE; Q2: **seeing a lot of Tim Will** calm quick passpro retreat, ditto, , lock up DB, chp but too slo to 2nd, buried DE inside, handled edge, neutd by DE, chp and nada, beat by inside rip, stuff by Payne, ez hndl of TW speed edge, , hndl Ry And edge, nice drviing lock up of Payne, nother hndld edge, hndld 1st Allen rush, , dbl Payne no release, , blunted by Allen, nother edge hndld, bad passpro decision chased & let free rusher go, scrn no/missed chip - pressure, , TW ripped inside, nice game p/u, hndl TW inside try, stuff TW
Q3: kick out Allen, bkside edge protect Allen, classic Allen control&shuck for run loss, , nother edge, ... moving on...

@ LaTech (L 52-55): nice ZBS slide, cut edge, wk chp no 2nd.. slo, , , nice game recog, anch'd, rode edge out of endzn, , , choping passpro, pull ins and pop but lil drv, destroyed DE leading sweep, drving POA in GL - TD, persist passpro, chose edge yielding gap shot, looping pull quicker, , , kick out, init edge then ripped; Q2: unhurried edge protect- read & recog'd, , , quick cutoff on sweep away, nice in to out passpro, bad cut at ankles, POA turn out, , , , quick get to deep 2nd and drove, stuffd new blood, nother good game p/u, quick rev seal on sweep left, drvn bk by bull late anch, persist lock of bull, anch, retrt anch, bad scrn, gamed, stffd big bull, 1st hand fight NICE fin'd ripping DE to ground, and PISSED? popped DE on kickout, suckered on trpl stunt;
Q3: leave for now trailing 49-24... may come back...

LaTech (W 55-44): standstill, chp and nnice 2nd, trn out De, lean in, chp rt and 2nd **LOOKING QUICKER**, , ex edge, pop w/ bit of hd dip, tied up DE no call hold - ins hands, nice pop of bid DE semi-rev seal sweep left, quick to 2nd took 2ndary target of op, nice thump brought DE hands down, stood self up, awk bkpddl on roll away, lock up but hands outside, kckout, stayd w/ determd edge, ez DB kickout, nice sldie to wide DB blitz, nnice pop extend arms drv, quick to edge; Q2: let beat on scrn left nice act, long ZBS run rt, drving k-o, slide out crunch in shot, maul in, chp out, lockn drv, qck chp out, qck lock, controlled 2nd lvl;
Q3: bad decis let DE outside go - SACK, lock out, , chp turn seal, freeze out, , nother ankle cut fail, sliding neut, drving ko, colliding hd-dip ko, retrt'g shoulder pop, drving leverage under pads, , rode out DE, drv trn lock DE on sweep left... LEt's move on...

Memphis (W 51-31): , nnice side step to 2nd ankle cut LB, De bailed immed look in for rush, decent scrn act then whiff, big hand fight w/ ko punch win, wk pass cut, , nifty slip mid then trn to p/u draw pursuit, ez hnd fight, lil passpro thump, nice latch on, nother ankle cut attempt, steady stay rush neut, wk thump on run, nice scrn invite, nother edge win, obstructed rel to 2nd, fought thru swim w/ grab low - no call, OT ELIGIBLE SCRN! FOR TD!!!; Q2: , downfield nothing, tied up DE enough to keep out of ZBS mid run bkside, pop trn in on run left, ez edge ride but footwork wk, neut DE, ez edge better feet, nice passpro disc to not chase looped ins AND cued OG to switch, quick step in seal out, buried DE inside, nice shadwo of wide DB rush, , sprint in act 4 qk pass wide left, , FINALLY nice thigh cut, , hopped to 2nd outside DB blitz, GL bury job - TD, FAKE KNEEL DOWN THE PATS STOLE! End of Qtr... enough for now...

Bottom Line:

Lamp is a kid with talent. At the next level he is going to be a good OG with the ability to slide outside in a pinch and not embarrass himself. DraftScout projects him to be the 2nd best OG in the draft, and that may be true, we'll see, but their placement of him as a cusp R1/2 pick seems a tad rich.

 

Any OG sniffing R1 placement must project as great, not just good or very good. I can and have found both in later rounds of past drafts. Lamp's SR. Bowl injury may have already pushed me to a lower pick as a better value... maybe even a better player. We'll soon see if that holds true.

 

In the above I am not arguing for a Day 3 placement. Day 2 seems right, but just not Day 1 nor early Day 2. Mid-R2? Closer. The R2/3 cusp? About right even with his OT fill in ability.

 

Now if can also play Center? That might elevate him some...

[The Gipper]

Forrest Lump....????

[Tour2ma]

Football is like a box of chocolates...

[TexasAg1969]

Football is like a box of chocolates...

 

.....................sometimes you get one that is liquor filled.

[gumby73]

I know a C/G that again maybe a FA 17. He's now 27 & was drafted by Hue in Oakland in 2011 @#48 from Penn State. Well Damn, we have his same OL coach in Oakland now in Cleveland, Bob Wylie..If we fail on landing a Elf..Hello Stefen Wisniewski...maybe this is the year.. Keep Up the Good Stuff Tour

[Tour2ma]

I know a C/G that again maybe a FA 17. He's now 27 & was drafted by Hue in Oakland in 2011 @#48 from Penn State. Well Damn, we have his same OL coach in Oakland now in Cleveland, Bob Wylie..If we fail on landing a Elf..Hello Stefen Wisniewski...maybe this is the year.. Keep Up the Good Stuff Tour

 

Feels like Wis's stock has fallen. Only 6 starts in PHI last season at OG... but then he was behind Kelce at C and Kelce made the Pro Bowl.

[Tour2ma]

And now my fist love affair of 2017...

 

Dion Dawkins Temple 6'4 317 (@PSU/@Memphis/SFU/UCin)

 

Summary:

Dion stepped into the limelight when Lamp went down Sr. Bowl Week. Working at LG he showed OT ability in passpro drills and drive on run blocks. All his tape is at LT... and he looks every bit of a very good, collegiate LT. Height and possibly arm length will likely send him inside for his NFL career just as it did Bito, who I think is a good NFL comparison.

 

While we've never had cause, thank goodness, to see Bito at OT for us, I said from his rookie year that should Joe go down, then Bito was out best LT option. I'm not sure that's the case any longer, but still think that was the case. And in Dion I see even more "swingman" potential than I saw in Bito. Dawkins is that good of an OT.

 

DD has a mini-kick step and good foot chop. Early in his season he carried his hands too low, around his waist, but by season's end they were chest high. He bends his knees into a nice seat. He anchors. He pass protects inside out. He hands fights well. He has "punch". When he latches on it's with hands inside the vast majority of the time. He shows a quick first step and gains position without rushing. He plays with purpose and confidence. He plays with positional discipline and alertness to line stunts. He shows anticipation at levels 2 and 3. And he thumps, if at times a tad high.

 

On his quickness and confidence... DD is the only OT I can ever remember seeing that plays on the LOS all the time. In his 3-point he plays head-even with his Center even when the LG is bowed a 1/2-yard off the LOS. While the Browns don't, generally OTs add another 1/2 to their OGs 1/2... and some OTs add even more... as much as they can get away with. In his 2-point? He's only off the LOS the small amount his higher spine angle generates. It's the damnedest thing...

 

Clearly DD was the class of Rutgers' OL. I only saw a couple negatives.

• First, there were periods of fatigue leading to errors in form and/or reaction. Usually they came near ends of halves. Often they were short-lived even within the same series. On one occasion he clearly rallied himself when he got pissed after a failed assignment.
• Second, he occasionally stopped "playing" around the 3 or 4-second mark letting his assignment get in on a busted play stop, e.g., scramble or reversed field run. The two "issues" maybe related. Both issues are easily addressable.

• Third, the only basic skill I saw that may need sharpening is his double-teaming, but this may have been as much due to the quality of the LG or TE with which he was paired as it was his shortcoming.

Against PSU DD was opposite Garrett Sickels the vast majority of the snaps. I case you don't recognize the name he is their #90 DE. He had the game of his career in PSU's win over THE Ohio State U. this past season with 2.5 sacks. And BTW, he has declared for the Draft. Garrett won a couple battles, but DD won far more. I think the PSU tape was the first I have watched in its entirety. It was that good... that informative... that much fun to watch.

 

In the other three games viewed DD was dominant, which is not to say he was perfect, but he was dominant. Most tried various match ups with no success in finding a competitive one. A couple gave up either leaving DD unoccupied or token occupying him with a shadowing DE or OLB. Often when unoccupied DD found something to hit.

 

Raw Game Notes: temporary distraction was Temple's QB early, but then not so much.
@PSU (L 27-34): blwn bk by DT, sub pen by same, drove same 5-yd, , mauled DE, lost in ZBS away, shoulder thump PassPro, quick outside seal, repeated commun with OG&TE, looking around at snap and beat across face by DE Sickels, nice 2nd level control **Quick Off Ball**, nother nice 2nd lvl w/ nice inside hands latch on, choppy-ugly passspro retreat, smoother retreat but head dip as popped DE, early recog/commun & smooth blitz p/u, pop DE but no move, **way up on line almost offside**, quick rev seal on PAP boot away, tad late to 2nd, nice pop/seal to inside, unbudged by 270 DE bull, danced in step w/DE, hndl'd 1st "speed" rush-met and rode, , guarded/ready for inside rush, nice switch on game-drove DE in-met DT out, nother ez speed hndl and ride, pateient retreating wait on looper, nother nice guard against inside move and recov for outside;
Q3: needs acting class, thumping turnout of DE on audible to run, ins cut and look to 2nd, stuffd DE at LOS pass, godd disc on way ins move-looked to 2nd, ate up chipped DE, , big KO then rev seal on sweep his way, ate up wide safety blitz, peel bk on WR pass PEN for Ill blk in bk, , hd dip and got ripped by 90 *fatigue?*, ez retrt to meet 90 bull and anch, wide pass set w/ extnd arms, qck ins cut-off move, nice passpro punch; Q4: deep lock up, hedl off by DE, stuuf ins then slid on LB blitz, retreating punch, GL stood up, , , soft invite out n deep, neck tie hold on ins DE shot no call, p/u zone blitz, mini-kick but bulled **Fatigue?**, no rush so popped ins, rec'd wide, *FS*, left looper to p/u corner, beat wide by 7 tech *tired and MAD*, cut off ins popped outside, ditto but no ins help - QB hit

@Mem (L 27-34): **another common opponent** quick, good position, no chal, zbs lead stopped, lil off balance, thump, going away a lot, almost beat inside off bull-bit of a hold, big chp 2nd and control, , pop, put off-bal by spin, , away, , steady vs "fakes', big ko and drv, blast in, absorb big blow anch'd, big latch and drv to ground leading zbs, rev seal away, OK move on boot his way; Q2: boot away, scrn away, thump neut DT, almost gave up ins, hd on swivel, influ away, roll out away, thump in and 2nd, ez to wide 7, qck rev seal, cntrl DE, hand fight, , influ in **gen enuff concern to be effective**, , cut off blown in on run away;Q3: moving on

SFU (W 46-30): quick thump out on bubbl, ko hit but no cntrl, pull and got in way, nice shuffle tech mirror, flinch?, patient drop w/ ins 1st guarding, cutoff chp and big 2nd, qck 2nd pop then look ins 4 pursuit, slide ins react out, qck to 2nd-stop-set for pursuit, rev seal drive, punch, latching rev seal on sweep his way, chopping retrt then p/u blck when runner revd field, ez pos then relented, **hands now higher in Passpro** , , latch thump, blown assign? step out to inf(?) De crashed tFL, just reached spd rush, patient retrt nnice rxn, aggress dbl thump ko; Q2: stuff ins, cut off hd dip miss, chk in qck out, crash in no sustain, , latch n lead away, bit hoppy on move out to 7, cntrl move to co 2nd, ill high push on TE-cut DE no call, , p/u co 3rd level, retrt form back, no chal, big high hit in GL, whf wide DE - TD, bit flat-footed got swam, hopped to seal out *opening long TD run hole*, dbl, ez, wait for ez; Q3: move on...

 

UCin (W 34-13): drving ko, rchd wide ko, POA dbl, , smooth retrt n meet, patient await X, thumping thigh high cut, retrt and latch, ez absorb, patnt cntrl, gave up ins flush, stmblng co n recov 2 drv 2 grnd, aggres co of ins pass rsh, infl out n latch, ez retrt; Q2: qck pull occ, POA trnout ko - lng run, , ez latch, ez, high thump knck DT 2 grnd, slide out latch, ex mini kick, ez w/nice arm extntn, mnhndlng turn out tie up, cntrl passpro, thmpin to; Q3: THE END...

 

The Bottom Line:

I think I'm in love...

 

This is the best OL tape that I have seen so far. DD is skilled and talented. He looks like a solid, Bito 2.0 type of pick. And I see swing-man potential in him.

 

DraftScout has him as their #4-ranked OG prospect with a 2nd-round grade. I agree... Round 2. Ultimately where in Round 2 will depend on how impressed I am with the two OGs they rank higher that I have not seen: Feeney and Johnson. But as of now spending our #53 pick on him feels right and our #33, right at the R1/2 cusp, is not out of the question.

 

This take puts DD atop my OG stack at the moment ahead of Lamp who displayed more flaws at LT than Dion did and therefore is not in my judgement a R1/2 cusp prospect.. So that's one down... below DD... and two to go.

[tiamat63]

I feel like a shit bag enjoying these. I havent had time to do any DB or DL Evals aside from the obvious ones.

[gumby73]

^^ sounds like Tour maybe in a D. Dawkins 'Chocolate Thunder Jr". jersey Day 2 In Philly..Stay tuned