Can This Draft Start like our 1978 Draft?

[The Gipper]

 

Some good points - thanks Gips! The only thing I'll disagree with is where Barnidge is at now vrs where he was in 2015 when he made the Pro Bowl. Here's what I typed earlier in this thread:

 

I feel like Barnidge's performance wasn't just slipping because our our QBs - he looked like he lost some quickness and dropped a lot of catchable passes (out of character). He went from 79 rec for 1043 rec yards 65.2 ypg and 9 TDs in 2015 down to 55 rec 611 rec yards 35.2 ypg and 2 TDs in 2016. The yards per catch also decreased by about 2 yards as well. He wasn't that good of a blocker either, which all caught me off guard following the only Pro Bowl season of his career. He will be 32 in September so I don't get the sense he has a lot left; but I could certainly be wrong about such a hunch.

 

From the title I carefully selected, it would remind me a lot of our 1978 if the pick of the litter on defense can team up with the next talented target (OJ Howard) we draft out of Alabama to play TE here. This one is 6'6" tall with a nice catch radius and some raw but intriguing blocking skills that can be refined. I put a link of his game vrs Clemson from 2 years ago somewhere in this thread to show you how lethal he can be in the passing game, while he also had some nice blocks (ie; the one on one outside where he got great position inside to seal off the Clemson DE for a long TD run by Henry). He seems more dual purpose than he'll probably get credited for while the Clemson game highlight will display his X-factor to a downfield passing game. Not only am I intrigued by his talent; but I'm also worried Ozzie Newsome remembers how important Shannon Sharpe was in preventing Dilfer from killing Dilfer. If we don't draft OJ Howard, just be prepared to watch him helping Baltimore or Pittsburgh.

 

If the pick of the litter on D can give us the consistency and productivity of a Clay Matthews toward whatever their specific role will be in tandem with what OJ Howard's dynamic can open up, could be the killer combo we've longed for in round 1 all this time. The draft is deeper in the secondary plus we get 2 defenders back from injury (Des Bryant and Nate Orchard), which should accimate well to Williams' schemes/alignments.

If Garrett were to have the career of Clay Matthews, and if Howard had the career of Ozzie....sure, I would take that. (but we still need a Brian Sipe or Bernie Kosar....and where we gonna get that? No supp draft or 13th round available any more)

[gumby73]

If Garrett were to have the career of Clay Matthews, and if Howard had the career of Ozzie....sure, I would take that. (but we still need a Brian Sipe or Bernie Kosar....and where we gonna get that?

Gip. if we get Garrett.than Howard & trade for Jimmy G @#33. I will be streaking downtown Philly as The Spectra Streaker. save my seat (hey, it's your day off,mine too,enjoy)

[Flugel]

If Garrett were to have the career of Clay Matthews, and if Howard had the career of Ozzie....sure, I would take that. (but we still need a Brian Sipe or Bernie Kosar....and where we gonna get that? No supp draft or 13th round available any more)

 

Did we get an MVP season out of Sipe before or after Ozzie Newsome showed up? Brian Sipe was a 13th round pick rumored to have the arm strength of a teenage - female punt, pass and kick participant. So, what was necessary to help a QB like Sipe? 1) The 1st round QB (Mike Phipps) we traded up to #3 overall to take in 1970 never became the franchise QB we needed him to be when it wasn't a QB friendly atmosphere here (especially while the 4.3 speed and HOF talent of Paul Warfield was being used in Miami to prevent defenses from loading up the box to stop Csonka, Morris and Kiick). 2) Making Cleveland an easier place to play QB right? Sipe's career took off in 1978 with 2906 yds, 21 TDs; and in 79 he had 3793 yds 28 TDs; and the MVP year of 1980 he threw for 4132 yds and 30 TDs at a time that was unheard of. In 81, he threw for 3876 yds and 17 TDs before he met up with father time in season #11 in 1982.

 

Another thing that happened is an undrafted Reggie Rucker went from a career journey man (w/Cowboys, Giants, NE) at WR to the best year of his career in 1978 with 893 yards on 43 receptions for 20.8 yards per catch and 8 TDs. The next year Rucker had 749 yards at 17.4 yards per catch and 6 TDs. What changed specifically? Ozzie stealing Safety attention to ease the matchups for the WRs outside. BABOOMBA! Ozzie's 1st 2 years, he averaged 15.5 and 14.2 ypc but his TD receptions went up from 2 to 9 while his rec went from 38 to 55. Either it's just a coincidence only or when we added Ozzie in 78 - both Sipe and Rucker began to play the best football of their careers.

 

When Infante arrived in 86, he used Ozzie masterfully while he was spreading defenses horizontally and challenging grey areas of zone transition where LBers dwell to bury the blitz with RBs combining for about 123 receptions. This also opened the seams even more where Ozzie remained the gridiron chess piece for Infante to dictate where he wanted the Safety. He used his Hall of Fame TE to manipulate the Safeties and his RBs to bury the blitz. Therefore, we didn't really seem to skip a beat if we had Pagel or Don Strock (when he was Grandpa Munster's age) because the design of offense tailored to our personnel made the 80s teams enjoying Ozzie's X-factor the easiest era here to play QB. What's the biggest complaint when Couch was here as a #1 overall? We didn't protect him well which is true. Having said that, we didn't exactly provide him with anything special at TE either...

 

I remain stuck on pause with if this team isn't equipped to handle/protect a 1st round investment at QB, I've already seen the conclusions to the sequel since the early 70s. Outside of 1 supplemental draft 32 years ago, what reasons do I have to think this franchise and its fan base is all of a sudden ready for a QB at #1 or #12? Last year we went with 2 first year starters at WR while Gary Barnidge turned into Rip Van Winkle without an alarm clock on the best salary of his career. I LIKE him but we have to remember how much is left on a guy that never had a huge ceiling in the first place.

 

Did you watch the video of OJ Howard vrs Clemson in the link I added to the thread earlier on? I'll guarantee you'll understand what I liked about his X-factor in that game plan Alabama beat Clemson 45-40 in. A 6'6" target with an ideal catch radius for prospect that catches passes with his hands? Then all we'd have to do is upgrade our slot receiver position from Tom Thumb to Seth DeValve; and I think we ease the matchups of the 2 WRs outside considerably.

 

The alternative is pretending this draft has a legit first round QB (or that we are even close to having the right setting to protect an upper 1st round QB investment) while many scouts and draft analysts paid for their research are calling this a weak QB class. We've been there - done that before rinsing and repeating it. The teams always kicking our asses let the draft fall to them. Here's our chance - why blow it? The first round in 1978 (Ozzie Newsome & Clay Matthews) sparked up our glory years in the 80s to follow regardless of who played QB or Coordinated the Defense.

 

As I already previously typed (and it may not mean a thing), I only saw 2 guys willing to wear Cleveland Browns baseball caps immediately after the Senior Bowl. They were OJ Howard and the QB Webb (who wouldn't need to be picked in round 1).

[Mark O]

Daniel Jerimiah from NFL network had us going Garrett and Howard in his latest mock draft. Looks like he copied Flugles...

[calfoxwc]

I can see us going Garrett, and Howard.

second round, cb (deep in cb's) and OT.

third round, OG, the big guy.

fourth round, QB.

 

I wonder if the Browns might trade down with the Bears.

They can get Trubisky, maybe the niners go qb or allen

maybe the Browns still get Garrett and a couple of extra high picks...

 

Maybe a whole lot of crazy stuff. But I think Howard is a future all-pro TE,

that will be the Browns' qb's best friend, and a dramatic immediate impact player.

[Mr. Make-Believe]

I'd love Howard with that second pick.

 

But I don't see him being available for us.

 

I'd do fucking back flips though.

[TexasAg1969]

DJ actually has Miami's TE one spot above OJ in his best 50 prospects list. One or the other would still be there @ #12 if that is the direction we go. Naturally I prefer more D help, but that is my bias on building a competitive team. But, that being said, if one of those was BPA, I'd have to go with him. We need this entire draft to be governed by BPA for a change, even if it means going against my bias towards D.

[BaconHound]

We can't block or defend but hey a TE as the 12th pick, great call

[LondonBrown]

We need this entire draft to be governed by BPA for a change, even if it means going against my bias towards D.

Totally agree with this and I'm pretty sure this FO won't fall into the "need" trap

[Flugel]

We can't block or defend but hey a TE as the 12th pick, great call

 

Since this is your 2nd fuss about Howard in the same thread I'll specify what jumped off the screen at me as to why I think of him differently than I usually think of TEs in the 1st round. When Alabama beat Clemson in the National Championship a year ago - the X-factor as depicted in the 6 minute video I linked below is OJ Howard. I have even provided how many minutes:seconds into the video each of his big plays occurred.

 

0:45 he seals off the outside for Henry's long TD run after making some good blocks leading up to that play

 

1:11 he has a 23 yard reception

 

2:45 he has a 53 yard TD reception

 

3:52 he has a 20 yard rec

 

5:15 he has a 52 yard TD reception

 

6:00 he has a 57 yard reception

 

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/o-j-howard-vs-clemson-2015/

 

So, why would a team needing more blocking and play makers on offense and defense want to consider OJ Howard after it drafts the defensive pick of the litter at #1 overall with the understanding it can resume with drafting defense again at #33 overall?

 

1) He's a 6'6" target with a gigantic catch radius and catches every pass with his hands.

 

2) He gets open a lot or he wouldn't have had almost 200 yards receiving in the Championship.

 

3) He has the wheels to run away from a top ranked defense as the 3 different catches over 50 yards showed.

 

4) While his blocking needs refinement and little more consistency, he has some good blocks on film.

 

5) He had also made the most of his limited playing time at the Senior Bowl with about 85 yards or so in less than a half.

 

This doesn't seem like your usual TE to me; so it brought back memories of the last/only time we got 2 picks right in round 1. That included someone destined to be a Hall of Fame TE (Ozzie Newsome). Howard is built more like Shannon Sharpe than Ozzie Newsome though which means he projects more dual purpose than Ozzie had particularly at setting/sealing the edge. While I understand your concern somewhat, defensive guys like Foster, Allen, Hooker, Adams, and others will probably already be gone before #12 anyway. We're also getting the highest paid talent in our front 7 back from injury (Des Bryant) which will feel like a new addition with fresh legs. Bryant can line up inside or outside in any front Williams wants to go with. We can also sign a free agent or two on defense along the way since we have a lot more spending money than most teams.

[BaconHound]

TE's drafted in the 1st round the last 10 years

2016 - 0

2015 - 0

2014 - Eric Ebron 10th - Lions

2013 - Tyler Eifert 21st - Bengals

2012 - 0

2011 - 0

2010 - Jermaine Gresham 21st - Bengals

2009 - Brandon Pettigrew 20th - Lions

2008 - Dustin Keller 30th - Jets

2007 - Greg Olsen 30th - Bears

 

Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. You can clearly see Ebron only one going 1-19 and you want us to look at #12? While I won't dismiss taking a TE in round 1, top 20 better be the next coming of Gronk and you better have the offense to put him in.

[Flugel]

TE's drafted in the 1st round the last 10 years

2016 - 0

2015 - 0

2014 - Eric Ebron 10th - Lions

2013 - Tyler Eifert 21st - Bengals

2012 - 0

2011 - 0

2010 - Jermaine Gresham 21st - Bengals

2009 - Brandon Pettigrew 20th - Lions

2008 - Dustin Keller 30th - Jets

2007 - Greg Olsen 30th - Bears

 

Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. You can clearly see Ebron only one going 1-19 and you want us to look at #12? While I won't dismiss taking a TE in round 1, top 20 better be the next coming of Gronk and you better have the offense to put him in.

 

He's not any of those guys so I encourage you to watch the video. I gave you what to look for. Why are you so terrified to watch it? It's because you know he might actually intrigue you the way he's been intriguing scouts. I have zero to do with why he's flying up the charts. You may want to educate yourself as to why and how it's happening.

 

Some years there's a reason to value a position more than others. Your excuses why you don't want to even watch his highlights are because Jermaine Gresham and Brandon Pettigrew didn't work out? Really? Okay, if we're going to go the similar conference/school route for the same projected NFL position - Ozzie DID work out and OJ Howard is from the same school looking to be a 1st round NFL TE as well. BTW, Eifert had 13 TD receptions in 2015 back when Cincy won the AFC North with a 12-4 record while Greg Olsen had a Pro Bowl season for the SB bound Carolina Panthers despite missing their #1 WR Kelvin Benjamin all year. The year the Ratbirds won their first SB - their leading receiver (who also prevented Dilfer from hanging Dilfer) was Shannon Sharpe. Drew Brees' best receiver when New Orleans won a SB was TE Jimmy Graham.

 

Watch the video. If you still feel it would be much smarter for us to hand OJ Howard to Baltimore or Pittsburgh instead of drafting him I'll make sure you never stop getting credit for such wisdom. I promise.

[calfoxwc]

Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon

***************************************

I'm calling bullhocksies on that.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82860152/article/best-firstround-tight-ends-of-the-last-decade

 

1. Vernon Davis, 49ers (No. 6, 2006)
2. Dallas Clark, Colts (No. 24, 2003)
3. Heath Miller, Steelers (No. 30, 2005)
4. Kellen Winslow, Browns (No. 6. 2004)
5. Brandon Pettigrew, Lions (No. 20, 2009)
6. Jeremy Shockey, Giants (No. 14, 2002)
7. Dustin Keller, Jets (No. 30, 2008)
8. Marcedes Lewis, Jaguars (No. 28, 2006)
9. Jermaine Gresham, Bengals (No. 21, 2010)
10. Daniel Graham, Patriots (No. 21, 2002)
11. Greg Olsen, Bears (No. 31, 2007)
12. Ben Watson, Patriots (No. 32, 2004)
13. Jerramy Stevens, (No. 28, 2002)

The bust rate of first-round tight ends over the last decade is exceptionally low. Guys like Lewis, Gresham, and Graham were good picks; solid starters. Watson is second-to-last on this list, but even he was a reasonably productive player.

Based on some of the recent gems at tight end in the draft (Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley), perhaps tight end is a position that remains undervalued by NFL evaluators.

[BaconHound]

Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon

***************************************

I'm calling bullhocksies on that.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82860152/article/best-firstround-tight-ends-of-the-last-decade

 

1. Vernon Davis, 49ers (No. 6, 2006)

2. Dallas Clark, Colts (No. 24, 2003)

3. Heath Miller, Steelers (No. 30, 2005)

4. Kellen Winslow, Browns (No. 6. 2004)

5. Brandon Pettigrew, Lions (No. 20, 2009)

6. Jeremy Shockey, Giants (No. 14, 2002)

7. Dustin Keller, Jets (No. 30, 2008)

8. Marcedes Lewis, Jaguars (No. 28, 2006)

9. Jermaine Gresham, Bengals (No. 21, 2010)

10. Daniel Graham, Patriots (No. 21, 2002)

11. Greg Olsen, Bears (No. 31, 2007)

12. Ben Watson, Patriots (No. 32, 2004)

13. Jerramy Stevens, (No. 28, 2002)

The bust rate of first-round tight ends over the last decade is exceptionally low. Guys like Lewis, Gresham, and Graham were good picks; solid starters. Watson is second-to-last on this list, but even he was a reasonably productive player.

Based on some of the recent gems at tight end in the draft (Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley), perhaps tight end is a position that remains undervalued by NFL evaluators.

 

 

A decade is 10 years, in this case 16-07. Looking at 1st round picks only and not voting bust or star but looking at what you expect from a first round pick vs later round picks. Try to keep up.

[BaconHound]

 

He's not any of those guys so I encourage you to watch the video. I gave you what to look for. Why are you so terrified to watch it? It's because you know he might actually intrigue you the way he's been intriguing scouts. I have zero to do with why he's flying up the charts. You may want to educate yourself as to why and how it's happening.

 

Some years there's a reason to value a position more than others. Your excuses why you don't want to even watch his highlights are because Jermaine Gresham and Brandon Pettigrew didn't work out? Really? Okay, if we're going to go the similar conference/school route for the same projected NFL position - Ozzie DID work out and OJ Howard is from the same school looking to be a 1st round NFL TE as well. BTW, Eifert had 13 TD receptions in 2015 back when Cincy won the AFC North with a 12-4 record while Greg Olsen had a Pro Bowl season for the SB bound Carolina Panthers despite missing their #1 WR Kelvin Benjamin all year. The year the Ratbirds won their first SB - their leading receiver (who also prevented Dilfer from hanging Dilfer) was Shannon Sharpe. Drew Brees' best receiver when New Orleans won a SB was TE Jimmy Graham.

 

Watch the video. If you still feel it would be much smarter for us to hand OJ Howard to Baltimore or Pittsburgh instead of drafting him I'll make sure you never stop getting credit for such wisdom. I promise.

 

I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.

 

Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.

[Flugel]

Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon

***************************************

I'm calling bullhocksies on that.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82860152/article/best-firstround-tight-ends-of-the-last-decade

 

1. Vernon Davis, 49ers (No. 6, 2006)

2. Dallas Clark, Colts (No. 24, 2003)

3. Heath Miller, Steelers (No. 30, 2005)

4. Kellen Winslow, Browns (No. 6. 2004)

5. Brandon Pettigrew, Lions (No. 20, 2009)

6. Jeremy Shockey, Giants (No. 14, 2002)

7. Dustin Keller, Jets (No. 30, 2008)

8. Marcedes Lewis, Jaguars (No. 28, 2006)

9. Jermaine Gresham, Bengals (No. 21, 2010)

10. Daniel Graham, Patriots (No. 21, 2002)

11. Greg Olsen, Bears (No. 31, 2007)

12. Ben Watson, Patriots (No. 32, 2004)

13. Jerramy Stevens, (No. 28, 2002)

The bust rate of first-round tight ends over the last decade is exceptionally low. Guys like Lewis, Gresham, and Graham were good picks; solid starters. Watson is second-to-last on this list, but even he was a reasonably productive player.

Based on some of the recent gems at tight end in the draft (Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley), perhaps tight end is a position that remains undervalued by NFL evaluators.

 

Well done Cal! And then there's steals/grand thefts like some of those you alluded to and others after round 1 like Shannon Sharpe, Gronk, Jimmy Graham, Jason Witten, Brent Jones or an undrafted Antonio Gates that many teams would hind sight 20/20 all the way up into round 1.

 

Judging OJ Howard because of someone else at TE a different year would be like saying Jamarcus Russell is a perfect QB because Peyton Manning was. Huh???? On the other hand, if he looks like he can be an x-factor type of TE like Ozzie was here - when we saw how often the teams Ozzie played on here frequented post seasons - why wouldn't consider our history for the potentially similar skill set for our TE position in round 1? We sucked in 1977 while hoping to find a way to help out a 13th round Qb (Brian Sipe) in 1978. And did Ozzie help Sipe over the next 4-5 years?

 

Is it that impossible to click on a link and watch a 6 minute video?

[calfoxwc]

your judgement of what to expect is pretty subjective. The TE isn't

as dramatic an impact player when you lack a good qb, etc etc etc.

 

But you can add a TE in the right situation, and it is a dramatic impact.

 

way too short on comprehensive factors, you are.

 

for instance:

 

Look at the list I posted, and look at the number of playoff teams. The TE's are a major

factor in helping them get there. and twice it was the Patriots.

[BaconHound]

 

I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.

 

Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.

 

 

your judgement of what to expect is pretty subjective. The TE isn't

as dramatic an impact player when you lack a good qb, etc etc etc.

 

But you can add a TE in the right situation, and it is a dramatic impact.

 

way too short on comprehensive factors, you are.

 

for instance:

 

Look at the list I posted, and look at the number of playoff teams. The TE's are a major

factor in helping them get there. and twice it was the Patriots.

 

 

Can you read?

[BaconHound]

 

Well done Cal! And then there's steals/grand thefts like some of those you alluded to and others after round 1 like Shannon Sharpe, Gronk, Jimmy Graham, Jason Witten, Brent Jones or an undrafted Antonio Gates that many teams would hind sight 20/20 all the way up into round 1.

 

Judging OJ Howard because of someone else at TE a different year would be like saying Jamarcus Russell is a perfect QB because Peyton Manning was. Huh????

 

Is it that impossible to click on a link and watch a 6 minute video?

 

I watched the video. And have not said anything about OTHER FUCKING TEAMS drafting him. You keep talking about him at #12 for the Browns and that is too high for a raw talent TE in an offensive system that is unproven and QB play that has been below average. I get the fact that the tea leaves tell you that a 39 year old pick makes this reasonable but god I hope the Browns brass don't.

 

In 2015 the Browns had a Pro Bowl TE and were 3-13. The team is in rebuild mode and in desperate need of talent and depth on defense.

[Flugel]

 

I watched the video, the Championship game, have read draft evaluations and looked at the stats. If I was drafting for a playoff team with a solid QB and very good offensive skill positions I think it would be a solid pick 15-30. Many draft evaluators are saying the same thing, unpolished and never lived up to the hype. Please don't tell me that the college a player attend almost 40 years apart means anything. He's a raw talent and the Browns need stability.

 

Plus we have Pro Bowler Gary Barnidge on the roster.

 

Says the guy who informed me because Gresham and Pettigrew sucked it can only mean Howard has to as well. You do realize Barnidge wasn't a Pro Bowl TE in 2016. He turns 32 in September 2017 while he looked/played like he was 42 last Fall. His TDs decreased from 9 in 2015 to just 2 in 2016 while his receptions dropped from 55 to 38 reducing his yardage from over 1000 to about 600 yards. Let's not pretend he's going in the right direction with plenty of upside.

 

So, you watched the whole video and remained completely unimpressed? Okay kid. And I just won 3 straight lotteries.

 

You also realize you don't draft best football in the rear view mirror in lieu of best football ahead right? Guys like Greg Olsen, Jason Witten and Jimmy Graham were much better pro TEs than they were in college. Meanwhile, Antonio Gates didn't even play college football when the worst team in the NFL gave him a contract in SD. And Shannon Sharpe came out of a small school like Savannah State.

 

When Howard didn't have to count on a true freshman at QB - he epitomized the big time player steps up in a big time game as I linked up. Same held true in the Senior Bowl. All that said, he didn't exactly suck in the last 2 post season games he played in either.

 

So what pick at #12 are you certain is going to save our defense and bring it to the next level especially knowing Foster, Hooker, Adams and many others will already be gone?

[Flugel]

 

 

 

 

Can you read?

 

No wonder why Zombo and a couple others thought you were an idiot a week or 2 ago.

[Flugel]

 

I watched the video. And have not said anything about OTHER FUCKING TEAMS drafting him. You keep talking about him at #12 for the Browns and that is too high for a raw talent TE

 

I'm not the only one eye balling him for #12. Daniel Jeremiah is a paid draft analyst doing so off his research while I've seen 6 other fans in saying in recent discussions they want him at #12. You asked Cal if he reads - do you?

 

You showed up with a smart ass comment mocking Howard twice in the same thread. I let the first one slide but joined the precedent you set the next time. I was expecting something far more impressive from you than Marty McFly losing track of when Barnidge last made the Pro Bowl; and way more coherent than if Gresham and Pettigrew sucked - a TE should never be considered up at #12 overall.

 

Yes, you were right we only won 3 games when Barnidge made the Pro Bowl. Unfortunately, that was 3 times as many games as we won when he only scored 2 TDs in 2016. When Ozzie gave us a Hall of Fame career at TE - we frequented playoffs throughout the 80s. Coincidence? That's the intrigue for finding an X-factor at the position. It's what he opens up for the WR Corps outside him and the QB behind him more than anything else. It's about understanding that kind of dynamic which is possible if your agenda isn't to be a smart ass first and foremost. I wrote all this in the OP to set up the context to follow which you leapfrogged.

[calfoxwc]

Can you read?

Olsen only one worth a first round pick in that list. bacon

**************************************************

I read just fine. Can you THINK ? Apparently not, because I clearly referred to your statement

above, discounting all those picks, some which you conveniently left blank, as first round choices.

 

When you have the chance to draft a Gronk, you draft him. The Browns will add the other players

in FA and the rest of the draft. The more legit question, is Bucky Hodges also a terrific

adddition to add? Will HE even make it to 33?

 

You discounted all those other TE's as not being first round picks, that was the point.

Furthermore, the Patriots drafted Gronk in the second round - in 2010, only because

he couldn't play his last year in college for injury. Given the possibility of trading for say,

Garop.... which was the point - and the very deep cb draft... Howard most certainly

would be a dynamic pick. He's a sure thing immediate impact player - assuming other

weaknesses on offense are fixed, too. When you can draft greatness, probably? in the first

round, you do it. And greatness isn't defined as a player who just has great measurables

at the combine, but rather including character, work ethic, love for the game.

 

 

 

[Tour2ma]

Any prospect that comes out of the BAMA Offense has to be scrutinized closely. It is so talent laden year in and year out. It is so well-rounded that it tends to normalize performance to a high level. It is the epitome of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

 

The impact on individual players is that it makes some appear to be better than they are while others are better, or have more potential, than this normalization allows them to showcase. I think their OL and RBs have shown to be great examples of the former while their QBs, WRs and TEs are more representative of the latter.

 

I think OJH is one of those TEs. I think his role in the BAMA O has limited him. I think he has to be in the conversation at #12 as he would seriously upgrade the TE play on our roster.

[calfoxwc]

DJ actually has Miami's TE one spot above OJ in his best 50 prospects list. One or the other would still be there @ #12 if that is the direction we go. Naturally I prefer more D help, but that is my bias on building a competitive team. But, that being said, if one of those was BPA, I'd have to go with him. We need this entire draft to be governed by BPA for a change, even if it means going against my bias towards D.

I've seen that, but when I start reading about Njoku more and more, he's very raw, and

not as polished. Tremendous upside, predicted by several to be a TE that goes

later on in the first, like to the Giants, etc.

 

He had an 11 percent drop stat, for whatever reasons... not that strong in his base...

but he's amazing. Howard is just elite right now. Bucky Hodges is quite a player,

but more a 2nd round guy.

[The Gipper]

We can't block or defend but hey a TE as the 12th pick, great call

K3?

[Flugel]

Any prospect that comes out of the BAMA Offense has to be scrutinized closely. It is so talent laden year in and year out. It is so well-rounded that it tends to normalize performance to a high level. It is the epitome of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

 

The impact on individual players is that it makes some appear to be better than they are while others are better, or have more potential, than this normalization allows them to showcase. I think their OL and RBs have shown to be great examples of the former while their QBs, WRs and TEs are more representative of the latter.

 

I think OJH is one of those TEs. I think his role in the BAMA O has limited him. I think he has to be in the conversation at #12 as he would seriously upgrade the TE play on our roster.

 

Very well said Tour!

 

Out of the 3 receptions he had over 50 yards on the Clemson Game video, I think the last one shows something really unique about his speed. He catches the ball behind the line of scrimmage where he outruns 3 defenders to get around the corner to the sideline. While jetting down sideline, there's Clemson LBers and DBs with ideal pursuit angles that can't catch him until the deepest defender out there finally knocked him out of bounds. I stopped seeing just a TE and starting projecting an X-factor.

 

Back in 1978, our FO didn't just see Ozzie Newsome as the Greatest WR Bear Bryant ever coached. They projected an X-factor which necessitated changing his position to TE. Ozzie was always good at blocking DBs and we never really asked him to be a Mark Bavaro at setting the edge. It was a smooth transition for him. He just opened things up for our WR Corps and completely changed the direction of the career of our 13th round QB (Sipe).

 

I think a guy like Howard could really help ease our WR matchups outside, which could help them get on the same page with our QB more frequently than they seemed to be in 2016. Not only that, but Howard's catch radius and speed makes him a legit scoring threat. Not long after Cincy drafted Eifert, he had 13 TD receptions in 2015 which was a huge help to his QB Dalton and his OC Hue.

[Tour2ma]

DJ actually has Miami's TE one spot above OJ in his best 50 prospects list. One or the other would still be there @ #12 if that is the direction we go.

 

And NFL.com grades Njoku slightly lower. The difference between he and OJH that I see... blocking. Big, fast and agile TEs are NFL OCs' newest toy... and they are coming out of the woodwork. Ones who can fill that bill and block? That's the truly rare breed.

 

Here are NFL.com profile excerpts...

 

Njoku

• Strengths:
  • Willing to compete as a blocker.
  • Can push defensive backs around from slot.
  • Gets early arm extension into defender and looks to create some turn.
  • Shows lateral blocking ability for zone scheme.
• Weaknesses:
  • Inexperienced at the position and still a work in progress.
  • Needs to add to his play strength to handle in-line blocking as a pro. Don't skip leg days, bro.
  • Struggled badly to stay in front of Pitt powerhouse Ejuan Price.
  • Hands too high and wide at point of attack.

OJH

• Strengths:
  • Lands his hands inside the frame as a blocker.
  • Operates with wide base and attempts to snap hips into his block.
• Weaknesses:
  • Will need more muscle and mass to be an in-line blocker as a pro.
  • Appears passive. Doesn't have the field demeanor of most Alabama players.
  • Needs better hand strength to sustain his blocks.
  • Can do better job of working feet into position after contact.

 

One is a raw 22/23-yo needing growth and tech. The other is a schooled, 22-yo man-child waiting for his body to mature.

 

I was surprised to see Greg Olsen as Njoku's comparison player. I would think he's more like Vernon Davis.

[BaconHound]

 

Says the guy who informed me because Gresham and Pettigrew sucked it can only mean Howard has to as well. You do realize Barnidge wasn't a Pro Bowl TE in 2016. He turns 32 in September 2017 while he looked/played like he was 42 last Fall. His TDs decreased from 9 in 2015 to just 2 in 2016 while his receptions dropped from 55 to 38 reducing his yardage from over 1000 to about 600 yards. Let's not pretend he's going in the right direction with plenty of upside.

 

So, you watched the whole video and remained completely unimpressed? Okay kid. And I just won 3 straight lotteries.

 

You also realize you don't draft best football in the rear view mirror in lieu of best football ahead right? Guys like Greg Olsen, Jason Witten and Jimmy Graham were much better pro TEs than they were in college. Meanwhile, Antonio Gates didn't even play college football when the worst team in the NFL gave him a contract in SD. And Shannon Sharpe came out of a small school like Savannah State.

 

When Howard didn't have to count on a true freshman at QB - he epitomized the big time player steps up in a big time game as I linked up. Same held true in the Senior Bowl. All that said, he didn't exactly suck in the last 2 post season games he played in either.

 

So what pick at #12 are you certain is going to save our defense and bring it to the next level especially knowing Foster, Hooker, Adams and many others will already be gone?

 

 

 

I'm not the only one eye balling him for #12. Daniel Jeremiah is a paid draft analyst doing so off his research while I've seen 6 other fans in saying in recent discussions they want him at #12. You asked Cal if he reads - do you?

 

You showed up with a smart ass comment mocking Howard twice in the same thread. I let the first one slide but joined the precedent you set the next time. I was expecting something far more impressive from you than Marty McFly losing track of when Barnidge last made the Pro Bowl; and way more coherent than if Gresham and Pettigrew sucked - a TE should never be considered up at #12 overall.

 

Yes, you were right we only won 3 games when Barnidge made the Pro Bowl. Unfortunately, that was 3 times as many games as we won when he only scored 2 TDs in 2016. When Ozzie gave us a Hall of Fame career at TE - we frequented playoffs throughout the 80s. Coincidence? That's the intrigue for finding an X-factor at the position. It's what he opens up for the WR Corps outside him and the QB behind him more than anything else. It's about understanding that kind of dynamic which is possible if your agenda isn't to be a smart ass first and foremost. I wrote all this in the OP to set up the context to follow which you leapfrogged.

 

 

Ok one last time. I didn't "mock" Howard at all. So now, for the last time I'll make these points simple and clear.

 

Over the last ten years there has been one TE selected in the first 19 picks Ebron to the Lions at 10. Taking a TE at #12 is a stretch for any team but an unproven, and ineffective offense makes the pick even riskier.

 

The Browns are a tire fire, their defense is absolutely atrocious. There are so many NEEDS they have to fill, it's not the time to gamble.

 

I'm not saying he won't be good, I'm not saying that the failings of other TE's have any effect on his success. My point has been crystal clear since the beginning. The Browns have more needs than a "could be great" TE.

[Tour2ma]

Taking a TE at #12 is a stretch for any team but an unproven, and ineffective offense makes the pick even riskier.

 

The Browns have more needs than a "could be great" TE.

 

How about a "will be great" TE?

 

Also not sure how the the poor state of the Offense makes the selection of one of the few impact players in the draft on that side of the ball "riskier".