The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 The question was asked about which NFL franchises have had the most first round draft pick busts.....the suggestion being that the Browns may be a leader in this category. Well, that might be true. Here are the Browns first round picks since the common AFL/NFL draft began in 1966. The Browns have had 49 first round picks in those years. I will put these in these categories: Busts, Borderline, Plus players, too soon. In the Too Soon, I only have 4 players (I am not including the 2016 picks in this analysis at all): Cameron Erving Danny Shelton Justin Gilbert Barkevious Mingo though these last two are headed their way toward the next category: Certified Busts....and possibly in this order, worst on top: Craig Powell Brady Quinn Mike Junkin Clifford Charlton Johnny Manziel Willis Adams Steve Holden Pete Adams Don Rogers (death) William Green Brandon Weeden Robert Jackson (LB) Mack Mitchell Trent Richardson Tommy Vardell Courtney Brown Gerard Warren (for Browns)* Charles White * Kameron Wimbley (for Browns)* *: had somewhat of a better career for other teams Borderline: Phil Taylor Antonio Langham Kellen Winslow II Braylon Edwards Tim Couch Derrick Alexander* Bob McKay Jeff Faine* Mike Phipps Marvin Upshaw* Ron Johnson* Bob Matheson* Plus players (good ones that met their draft status): Clay Matthews Joe Thomas Chip Banks Hanford Dixon Eric Metcalf Mike Pruitt Ozzie Newsome Thom Darden Eric Turner Alex Mack Joe Haden Clarence Scott Milt Morin So, only 26.5% of Browns players selected in round 1 became plus players 40.8% were basically undeniable busts 24.4% were borderline players And I have 8.1% as too soon to tell. So, yea, I don't think that is a very good record. To me, the Bust and Plus numbers should minimally be reversed. I will also try to look at the other teams from the AFCN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 I think, for the Steelers, the kind of breakdown they have is more like what you want: Too soon to tell: Ryan Shazier Bud Dupree Busts: Dick Leftbridge Gabe Rivera Huey Richardson Jamain Stephens Darryl Sims Tom Ricketts Mark Breuner Tim Worley Greg Hawthorn Mike Taylor Aaron James Troy Edwards Deon Figures Keith Gary John Rienstra Mark Malone Borderline: Bennie Cunningham Rashard Mendenhall Evander Hood Ron Johnson Eric Green Walter Abercrombie Charles Johnson JT Thomas Chad Scott Kendall Simmons Plus players: Cameron Heyward David DeCastro Heath Miller Santonio Holmes Maurkice Pouncey Leon Searcy Louis Lipps Frank Lewis Lynn Swann Robin Cole Lawrence Timmons Plaxico Burress Dave Brown Casey Hampton Troy Polamalu Franco Harris Joe Greene Terry Bradshaw Ben Roethlisberger Alan Faneca Rod Woodson So, for the Steelers since 1966 they have the following breakdown: Too soon: 4% Borderline: 20% Busts: 32% Plus: 42% So, clearly a much better mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob806 Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Borderline: Phil Taylor Antonio Langham Kellen Winslow II Braylon Edwards Tim Couch Derrick Alexander* Bob McKay Jeff Faine* Mike Phipps Marvin Upshaw* Ron Johnson* Bob Matheson* I'll never look at Couch as a bust. In Browns history, he's ranked 5th in passing yards. And 3rd in times sacked (only 5 seasons played). I don't think he was better than McNabb (hindsight of course), but I bet McNabb would have been doomed to fail as well those years, virtually no O line help at all. Couch lead the team to a playoff birth, only to have Butch Davis fall in love with Kelly Holcomb. Couch wasn't great, but he was far from a bust IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Here is the breakdown for The Bengals since 1966: Too Soon to Tell: Cedric Ogbuehi Darquez Dennard Tyler Eifert...though he seems on the way to a plus grade Busts: Mike Cobb Akili Smith David Pollack David Verser Glen Collins Chris Perry Greg Cook David Klingler Pete Koch Kijana Carter Jack Thompson Reinard Wilson Rickey Dixon Emanuel King Billy Brooks Ricky Hunley Jason Buck Keith Rivers Borderline players: Jermain Gresham Charles Alexander Peter Warrick Brian Blados Bill Kollar Wilson Whitley Mike Reid Archie Griffin Andre Smith Dave Rimington John Copeland Joe Kelly Brian Simmons Tim McGee James Francis Ross Browner Levi Jones Glen Cameron Alfred Williams Leon Hall Vern Holland Plus players: Kevin Zeitler AJ Green Sherman White Darryl Williams Jonathan Joseph Eddie Edwards Eddie Brown Bob Johnson Dan Wilkinson Blair Bush Isaac Curtis Takeo Spikes Willie Anderson Justin Smith Carson Palmer Anthony Munoz The Bengals breakdown is as follows: Too soon: 5% Busts: 30.5% Borderline: 35.5% Plus players: 27.1% It seems more Bengals were more middle of the road rather than bust or hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 I'll never look at Couch as a bust. In Browns history, he's ranked 5th in passing yards. And 3rd in times sacked (only 5 seasons played). I don't think he was better than McNabb (hindsight of course), but I bet McNabb would have been doomed to fail as well those years, virtually no O line help at all. Couch lead the team to a playoff birth, only to have Butch Davis fall in love with Kelly Holcomb. Couch wasn't great, but he was far from a bust IMHO. And I didn't have him in the bust pool if you notice. I had him in the borderline pool.....not good/great players....not busts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 The Ravens have the best record of all in their "short" existance. Too Soon to Tell: Breshard Perriman Matt Elam Busts: Kyle Boller.......the only real bust they have had in 20 years Borderline: Michael Oher Todd Heap Duane Starks Travis Taylor Jimmy Smith Mark Clayton Plus players: Ray Lewis Ed Reed Jonathan Ogden Terrell Suggs Haloti Ngata Joe Flacco Jamal Lewis Chris McAlister Peter Boulware Ben Grubbs CJ Mosley...getting there The Ravens Breakdown is: Too soon: 10% Busts: 5% Borderline: 30% Plus players: 55% I suggest that no team in the league has done so well in that period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Borderline Michael Oher? Dude you're wrong on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Borderline Michael Oher? Dude you're wrong on that one. He has been an OK player. Nothing spectacular. In 7 years in the league he has never made a single Pro Bowl. Or, were you thinking the other way.....that he is a bust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 He has been an OK player. Nothing spectacular. In 7 years in the league he has never made a single Pro Bowl. Or, were you thinking the other way.....that he is a bust? I think he's pretty darn good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 I think he's pretty darn good. Apparently though his fellow players, coaches, executives...and the fans...have not seen fit to name him to a Pro Bowl....and not good enough for the Titans who were what? 3-13 to not have released him. I mean I do not think he ended up being as good as Mitchell Schwartz. (though he might be better than what we have now. When he was released it would not have broken my heart to pick him up as a replacement for The Schwartz) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Apparently though his fellow players, coaches, executives...and the fans...have not seen fit to name him to a Pro Bowl....and not good enough for the Titans who were what? 3-13 to not have released him. I mean I do not think he ended up being as good as Mitchell Schwartz. (though he might be better than what we have now. When he was released it would not have broken my heart to pick him up as a replacement for The Schwartz) They made a flipping movie about he kid. Not enough say he wasn't worthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Other was drafted as a LT, couldn't cut it and was moved to RT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 They made a flipping movie about he kid. Not enough say he wasn't worthy? They made an inspirational movie about Rudy Ruettiger. That doesn't mean he was Pro Bowl talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 They made an inspirational movie about Rudy Ruettiger. That doesn't mean he was Pro Bowl talent.Oher won a SB right? He was a vital part of a line that won it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Other was drafted as a LT, couldn't cut it and was moved to RT. I heard someone say that they thought Alvin Bailey was shaky....and he is slated to be our starte at ROT.....so...yea, maybe Oher could have been a guy to get. But now we gotta go with Bailey or Shon Coleman....or Drango? (Or is he a guard?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Oher won a SB right? He was a vital part of a line that won it all. Lots of middle of the road players have Super Bowl rings. I am not dissing him or saying he is a bust. But he is not what I categorize as a plus player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Lots of middle of the road players have Super Bowl rings. I am not dissing him or saying he is a bust. But he is not what I categorize as a plus player. Whatever dude. I could comb through all of your lists and find many screw ups because I'm smart. Now if you will excuse me I'm watch Trailor Parks Boys all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Whatever dude. I could comb through all of your lists and find many screw ups because I'm smart. Now if you will excuse me I'm watch Trailor Parks Boys all day. Watch it? Or live it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Watch it? Or live it?Watch it. I live in a building we own with neighbors that best keep it down or they get the boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkHole Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Borderline busts? Bennie Cunningham and Eric Green were not borderline busts. Especially that big fat ass Green who was a 2X pro bowler. Playing 10 yrs. makes one a serviceable player. Cunningham started in 2 Super Bowls. Speaking of Cunningham...you're old enough to remember this Gip. A game in which the Browns were on the verge of breaking that Three Rivers Jinx when this happened.... (The second clip.). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmcoDA65QFI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkHole Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 Actually that was an OT game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 8, 2016 Report Share Posted August 8, 2016 No one cares about the stoolers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 I'll never look at Couch as a bust. In Browns history, he's ranked 5th in passing yards. And 3rd in times sacked (only 5 seasons played). I don't think he was better than McNabb (hindsight of course), but I bet McNabb would have been doomed to fail as well those years, virtually no O line help at all. Couch lead the team to a playoff birth, only to have Butch Davis fall in love with Kelly Holcomb. Couch wasn't great, but he was far from a bust IMHO. I totally agree. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Yes, Oher is a very good player. And Mike Phipps was not "borderline" he was down right shitty. C'mon Gip, you know better than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Borderline busts? Bennie Cunningham and Eric Green were not borderline busts. Especially that big fat ass Green who was a 2X pro bowler. Playing 10 yrs. makes one a serviceable player. Cunningham started in 2 Super Bowls. Speaking of Cunningham...you're old enough to remember this Gip. A game in which the Browns were on the verge of breaking that Three Rivers Jinx when this happened.... (The second clip.). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmcoDA65QFI By borderline I meant average players....not good, not bad. Average. Maybe Green was better than that....I will defer to your more intimate knowledge of their careers. I was going by the PFR career production values for each which were decidedly average. But Green with two Pro Bowls, yes, would be better. As far as that game, I recall that there was a major referee bad call that gave the Steeler's that game. Had instant replay been in effect it likely would have gone the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Do a rewrite Gip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Yes, Oher is a very good player. And Mike Phipps was not "borderline" he was down right shitty. C'mon Gip, you know better than that. Oher never made a Pro Bowl.....so I can't give him anything other than borderline status. (again...borderline does not mean, bust...it means average. A "Plus" player is a really good player. While I would take him now at RT probably over what we have, he was not as good as Schwartz...and maybe we got someone on our roster who can do better....Coleman/Drango. And, yes, I was being a bit kind to Phipps. He had his moments....even took the team to the playoffs. But I am not sure I would call his career a complete bust......it was borderline between being borderline and being a bust....so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I mean....he wasn't Quinn/Weeden/Manziel bust status. Fair to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted August 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Do a rewrite Gip! Re: being right. I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 Oher never made a Pro Bowl.....so I can't give him anything other than borderline status. (again...borderline does not mean, bust...it means average. A "Plus" player is a really good player. While I would take him now at RT probably over what we have, he was not as good as Schwartz...and maybe we got someone on our roster who can do better....Coleman/Drango. And, yes, I was being a bit kind to Phipps. He had his moments....even took the team to the playoffs. But I am not sure I would call his career a complete bust......it was borderline between being borderline and being a bust....so I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I mean....he wasn't Quinn/Weeden/Manziel bust status. Fair to say? Weeden is better than Phipps. Because of how high he was drafted and the fact the he was drafted in an era where you developed young starters and took the lumps a lot longer, Phipps got quite a long look ... But he was really awful. As for Oher, maybe it's your terminology. "Borderline" makes a reader think Borderline Bust in a thread about busts. If you mean Solid ... Then say solid. If you are a tackle drafted #23 and you start every year for the first 8 years of your career, and you are the starting left tackle on two Super Bowl teams, that's a solid career and a good pick for the team that drafted him and won a Super Bowl with him playing left tackle. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob806 Posted August 9, 2016 Report Share Posted August 9, 2016 By borderl As far as that game, I recall that there was a major referee bad call that gave the Steeler's that game. Had instant replay been in effect it likely would have gone the other way. Bingo....Larry Anderson fumbled the OT kickoff, Browns recovered on the 23 yd line...but wait, the "whistle blew." I'm still not over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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