The Gipper Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Thread inspired by comments in a different thread. Sort of a "Great debate" on here of which is more vital....a great QB or a great defense. I am not really interested in getting into that debate right here and now (though I suspect it is inevitable). What I am interested in is what HAS happened in the past: What "Championship Level" teams have had a Great QB but a mediocre defense? (they don't have to have won the title...but at least they needed to have competed for it). What "Championship Level" teams have had mediocre QBs but great defenses? The one year that comes to mind is the year the Colts played the Bears in the Super Bowl. The Colts had the great Peyton Manning.....but statistically for the regular season their defense was way below par. I would have to look it up but I know that they were ranked somewhere in the mid 20s in the league. Although...to be fair, that defense really stepped it up in the playoffs. On the other hand....the Bears had the very unremarkable Rex Grossman playing QB for them....but that team had an outstanding defense...one of the top rated. In that case, the great QB prevailed as the Colts won. In other years as have been documented there are teams where a great defense carried a mediocre QB: 2000 Ravens...Dilfer at QB 2002 Buccaneers...Brad Johnson at QB 2005 Steelers...the then still learning but not HOF quality Ben R. Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 It's both. There hasn't been a "game manager" QB to win the super Bowl since Brad Johnson as you've noted in 2002. This link breaks down total defense until 2014. The two winners not on there (Broncos and Patriots) were 1st and 8th, respectively: https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/2zltuy/offensive_and_defensive_ranks_for_superbowl/ If I did my math right there, it means over the past 16 super bowl winners the average defensive rank was a bit above 8th in the league. The offensive rankings were almost two places lower at 10th in the league on average. There are 3 exceptions with the defense in the 20s (lowest 25th), but the thread is common enough to create a statistical pattern. Couple that with the names of the Super Bowl winning QB's since 2002 Manning (x2) Brady Big Ben Brees Rodgers Flacco Wilson And it creates over a decade long answer to the question of what makes a Super Bowl team-above average to elite defense and elite QB play. It's pretty cut and dry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 It's both. There hasn't been a "game manager" QB to win the super Bowl since Brad Johnson as you've noted in 2002. This link breaks down total defense until 2014. The two winners not on there (Broncos and Patriots) were 1st and 8th, respectively: https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/2zltuy/offensive_and_defensive_ranks_for_superbowl/ If I did my math right there, it means over the past 16 super bowl winners the average defensive rank was a bit above 8th in the league. The offensive rankings were almost two places lower at 10th in the league on average. There are 3 exceptions with the defense in the 20s (lowest 25th), but the thread is common enough to create a statistical pattern. Couple that with the names of the Super Bowl winning QB's since 2002 Manning (x2) Brady Big Ben Brees Rodgers Flacco Wilson And it creates over a decade long answer to the question of what makes a Super Bowl team-above average to elite defense and elite QB play. It's pretty cut and dry. Nice Job...though I would argue that BR was a "game manager" type QB in his first SB win. (In fact...I would say that the Steelers won in spite of his poor play in that game. Again, later in 2008...no, he was a catalyst...but not that first year) Also interesting that those 2011 Giants that upset the Pats had the worst overall combined ranking...and that that defense....which I thought was supposed to be a very vaunted defense had the worst ranking......25th in the league! Also interesting is the fact that, by these stats, it can be argued that the 1972 Dolphins and the 1996 Packers can be considered the two greatest teams of the Super Bowl era, in that they are the only two teams that ranked both #1 in defense and #1 in offense the years they won......followed closely by the 1991 Redskins and the 1985 Bears....who averaged 1.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Looking at jrb's link.....While these two teams had highly ranked offenses.....can it be fair to say that Jay Schroeder ..1987 Redskins QB and Mark Rypien...1991 Redskins QB fall into the ranks of "mediocre" QBs that have won a title? That, to me, is a testament to the greatness of Joe Gibbs as a coach. And while I know that a lot of people consider Jim Plunkett a so so QB.....to a point I have to disagree. His overall career stats are not as impressive as some....but, here IS a guy with a lot of talent. He won the Heisman Trophy. He was the #1 overall pick in the draft...but he did get off to a very slow start to his career, the the point that the team that originally drafted him cut him loose. But...the dude won 2 Super Bowls later in his career. He just had to be put into a system in which he could flourish. He did not become one of the legion of "Heisman Bust" QBs...as he was thought to be early on. He was not the only Super Bowl winner/Hall of Fame QB to have had a rough start. Look at Len Dawson: cut by both the Browns and Steelers....and he had to go find his career in the AFL. Johnny U. cut by the Steelers....he had to get a job with an expansion team. Joe Theismann....played in Canada...may have even been cut by the Dolphins. Steve Young went through both the LA Express and the Tampa Bay Bucs before finding his career in SFO. Favre...traded by the Falcons. Kurt Warner...bagging groceries and playing in the Arena League....and now in a week or so he will be inducted into the HOF. (so...what I am saying is: maybe Brock Osweiler can follow these examples???? Guhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Someone else did the job for me on another thread....listing those who won the SB and those who lost. Here is that list: 1: Bart Starr/Len Dawson 2: Bart Starr/Daryle Lamonica 3. Joe Namath/ Earl Morrall 4. Len Dawson/Joe Kapp 5. Johnny Unitas/Craig Morton 6. Roger Staubach/ Bob Griese 7. Bob Griese/ Bill Kilmer 8. Bob Griese/ Fran Tarkenton 9. Terry Bradshaw/Fran Tarkenton 10. Terry Bradshaw/ Roger Staubach 11. Ken Stabler/ Fran Tarkenton 12. Roger Staubach/ Craig Morton 13. Terry Bradshaw/ Roger Staubach 14. Terry Bradshaw/ Vince Farragamo 15. Jim Plunkett/ Ron Jaworski 16. Joe Montana/ Ken Anderson 17. Joe Theisman/ David Woodley 18. Jim Plunkett/ Joe Theisman 19. Joe Montana/ Dan Marino 20. Jim McMahon/ Tony Eason 21. Phil Simms/ John Elway 22. Doug Williams/ John Elway 23. Joe Montana/ Boomer Esiason 24. Joe Montana/ John Elway 25. Jeff Hostetler/ Jim Kelly 26. Mark Rypien/ Jim Kelly 27. Troy Aikman/ Jim Kelly 28. Troy Aikman/ Jim Kelly 29. Steve Young/ Stan Humpheries 30. Troy Aikman/ Neil O'Donnell 31. Brett Favre/ Drew Bledsoe 32. John Elway/ Brett Favre 33. John Elway/ Chris Chandler 34. Kurt Warner/ Steve McNair 35. Trent Dilfer/ Kerry Collins 36. Tom Brady/ Kurt Warner 37. Brad Johnson/ Rich Gannon 38. Tom Brady/ Jake Delhomme 39. Tom Brady/ Donovan McNabb 40. Ben Roethlisberger/ Matt Hasselbeck 41. Peyton Manning/ Rex Grossman 42. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady 43. Ben Roethlisberger/ Kurt Warner 44. Drew Brees/ Peyton Manning 45. Aaron Rodgers/ Ben Roethlisberger 46. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady 47. Joe Flacco/ Colin Kaepernick 48. Russell Wilson/ Peyton Manning 49. Tom Brady/ Russell Wilson 50. Peyton Manning/ Cam Newton 51. Tom Brady/ Matt Ryan We kind of went over the SB winners. What about some of the losers. Which QBs on there were, shall we say Mediocre.....carried along by a great defense? ("game managers....at least for that period, if you will") I mean, there are a couple of guys on that list that I don't think anyone at this point would consider to even be a "good" NFL QB: Rex Grossman, David Woodly. Yet their team made a Super Bowl. And I think some are at best "average or slightly above average": Chandler, Humphries, O'Donnell, Eason, Ferragamo, Kapp, Delhomme, Kilmer. Some of the others were "very good"...but not on the Hall of Fame level: Hasselback, Jaworski, Esiason, McNabb (though I think he may become HOF), Gannon, McNair, Morton, Anderson (same with him...I think possible HOF level...at least close), Lamonica. Now: what about this guy: Colin Kaepernick? (I don't want to get into issues of his politics...just his QBing). He started out like a house afire....a Super Bowl appearance in which he was thisclose to winning. Plus another NFC title game. Then the apparent dropoff. (I believe if anyone thought his talent was still there that he would most definitely have a job now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob806 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I'd say Bob Griese/Earl Morral were mediocre QBs that had a great defense back in 1972. It was Miami's running attack that carried the load on those teams, along with Paul Warfield at WR. Mike Phipps' 5 INTs were the only reason the Browns lost that playoff game (plus a blocked punt). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I'd say Bob Griese/Earl Morral were mediocre QBs that had a great defense back in 1972. It was Miami's running attack that carried the load on those teams, along with Paul Warfield at WR. Mike Phipps' 5 INTs were the only reason the Browns lost that playoff game (plus a blocked punt). But...Bob Griese is in the HOF as a QB. So a lot of people thought enough of him as a QB to vote him in....which is saying something. As for Morrall....he is an exception. He was a backup QB that came in basically because Johnny U was hurt....and JU did come into the 2d half of that game to try to pull it out. Would you say the same about Jeff Hostetler? Backup QB....game won by a great defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoolie Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Gip, I love ya man, but honestly, only fucking Browns fans would get into a heated debate here. Horrta and his band of buffoons, the Hoortards, are like the mainstream media attacking Trump. The truth has no bearing, the fuckers are going to write their narrative no matter what. Same thing here. No matter how obvious it is, the majority of Browns fans have come to loathe star quality quarterbacks. Blah blah fucking blah about fat ass offensive linemen...................... blah blah fucking blah about defense...... Which is more important? NEWS FLASH.................. you don't win the fucking SB with Bernie Kosar, Tony Romo, Kessler, RG3, Hogan or the rest of the horse shit we have had. Football is all about the QB. It always has been, it always will be. Now, is it possible to win a SB with a shit QB? No, it's not. An average QB? Ah.............. yeah.....once in a fucking blue moon. Take a look at the QBs who have won the SB. Not exactly a lot of shit QBs in the class. Only looney-toons Browns town do fans think the QB position is a shit position that is of secondary importance. So.....here................. the SB winning QBS..........................a SHIT LOAD of Hall of Famers. Dilfer, the only exception, but even he was better thn anything the Browns have had since Frank Ryan, and Ryan was not stellar. Wow............... look...............Where is Mike Pagel? Queerdell Stewart? Brady Quinn? Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TDSuper Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDsSuper Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TDSuper Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TDSuper Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TDSuper Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDsSuper Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TDSuper Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TDSuper Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 1 TDsSuper Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDsSuper Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDsSuper Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TDSuper Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TDSuper Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDsSuper Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDsSuper Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDsSuper Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDsSuper Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDsSuper Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TDSuper Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDsSuper Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDsSuper Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDsSuper Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TDSuper Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDsSuper Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TDSuper Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TDSuper Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TDSuper Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDsSuper Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDsSuper Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TDSuper Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TDSuper Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDsSuper Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDsSuper Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TDSuper Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDsSuper Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDsSuper Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDsSuper Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDsSuper Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 42. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady 46. Eli Manning/ Tom Brady Tom Brady gets ass raped twice by a Giant's defense..No where to run. No where to hide for Tom Terrific..Scoring 17 points than 14 points..ok, just glad to get that off my chest again..cough,cough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 Really? A SB list of winning QBs where 40% of the time they don't even rate the SB MVP award is a convincing argument? I fucking decide to un-ignore you and that's what I get? Sort of a "Great debate" on here... It wasn't in the inspiring thread, but it might have been here... And you were onto something with Hos and Rypien. Can even add a few more... Problem is a simple QB vs D debate is just that... simple... too simple. There are so many more facets to this team game we love... and you cannot suck at any of them and be successful... but you can be merely "good" at one or two and succeed, if you are strong enough in the other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Gip, I love ya man, but honestly, only fucking Browns fans would get into a heated debate here. Horrta and his band of buffoons, the Hoortards, are like the mainstream media attacking Trump. The truth has no bearing, the fuckers are going to write their narrative no matter what. Trump gets attacked because Trump is psychotic...the truth, yes, has no bearing...to Trump...but that is another issue, not for here We have debates about these things because it is entertaining to do so. Same thing here. No matter how obvious it is, the majority of Browns fans have come to loathe star quality quarterbacks. Blah blah fucking blah about fat ass offensive linemen...................... blah blah fucking blah about defense...... You are wrong about Browns fans loathing star quality QBs...their own. Yes, we are perfectly capable of loathing the start QBs ...of other teams. Which is more important? NEWS FLASH.................. you don't win the fucking SB with Bernie Kosar, Tony Romo, Kessler, RG3, Hogan or the rest of the horse shit we have had. BK did not have the defense to go with him. Football is all about the QB. It always has been, it always will be. Now, is it possible to win a SB with a shit QB? No, it's not. An average QB? Ah.............. yeah.....once in a fucking blue moon. Take a look at the QBs who have won the SB. Not exactly a lot of shit QBs in the class. Well, you may be missing the point.....it IS proven that yes, once in a blue moon that you can win a SB with an average QB. But it is far, far more rare to have a team win a SB with an average defense. Like once in an eclipse. Only looney-toons Browns town do fans think the QB position is a shit position that is of secondary importance. Well...I don't think there are ANY that do think that. You are just deluding yourself if you think so....or you are creating a false argument to prop up whatever it is that you have in your own mind. Browns fan would love a star QB.....NOW...tell us when we are going to have one. So.....here................. the SB winning QBS..........................a SHIT LOAD of Hall of Famers. Dilfer, the only exception, but even he was better thn anything the Browns have had since Frank Ryan, and Ryan was not stellar. Wow............... look...............Where is Mike Pagel? Queerdell Stewart? Brady Quinn? No, but there is practically the equivalent: Mark Rypien, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler. Think about why these guys won (and Dilfer): great defense. Again....I think you miss the point here. How many of these HOF QBs won with an average defense. One or two maybe. Fewer than have won with an average QB. Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 1 TDs Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs, Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco (MVP), 3TDs Super Bowl 48: Russell Wilson (Malcolm Smith), 2TDs Super Bowl 49: Tom Brady (MVP), 4TDs Super Bowl 50: Peyton Manning (Von Miller), 0TDs Super Bowl 51: Tom Brady (MVP), 2TDs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Really? A SB list of winning QBs where 40% of the time they don't even rate the SB MVP award is a convincing argument? I fucking decide to un-ignore you and that's what I get? It wasn't in the inspiring thread, but it might have been here... And you were onto something with Hos and Rypien. Can even add a few more... Problem is a simple QB vs D debate is just that... simple... too simple. There are so many more facets to this team game we love... and you cannot suck at any of them and be successful... but you can be merely "good" at one or two and succeed, if you are strong enough in the other areas. Sure...of course it is not that simple. Nevertheless...remember, none of us get paid to be on here or to try to dissect complicated matters. For entertainment purposes we watch Superhero movies, not epics. Same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Fair enough... Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route. Which is the easier route to follow? Land a great QB and build a very good D, or... Build a great D and land a very good QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 Fair enough... Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route. Which is the easier route to follow? Land a great QB and build a very good D, or... Build a great D and land a very good QB? Well, I expect most teams would like to do both. I mean, any GM of a team tries to do both. But, they have to get lucky. When the Browns drafted the likes of Quinn, Manziel, Weeden at #22...they were hoping they got the equivalent of Aaron Rodgers...a #24 pick. When they drafted Justin Gilbert at #8 they were hoping they were getting a Patrick Peterson...and not a Justin Gilbert. The Steelers back in 2004 had built a great defense/OL/run game....but they needed a star QB to put the icing on the cake. They got BR who became HOF caliber....but, they just as easily could have gotten a Matt Leinert, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Jamarcus Russell. In some respects, that is why some teams go the route of picking up veteran QBs.....QBs who have some track record in the game. Look at that list above of SB winning QBs. I count at least 9 of them who did not get there with the original team that drafted them. So, there is that route. Consider these words: Brock Osweiler, Super Bowl Winning Quarterback! (not necessarily as far fetched as Trent Dilfer, Super Bowl Winning QB...or Brad Johnson, fair to say?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 26, 2017 Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 "Like to" is not a plan... One or the other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2017 "Like to" is not a plan... One or the other... No....a team should try to...to like to... do both: Acquire a great QB AND develop a great defense. A large percentage of Championship teams have done just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob806 Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 But...Bob Griese is in the HOF as a QB. So a lot of people thought enough of him as a QB to vote him in....which is saying something. As for Morrall....he is an exception. He was a backup QB that came in basically because Johnny U was hurt....and JU did come into the 2d half of that game to try to pull it out. Would you say the same about Jeff Hostetler? Backup QB....game won by a great defense? Bob Griese was ok, ike Rocky Blier. How they got into Canton is a mystery to me...nothing exceptional, just part of a great team. Yes, in regards to Hostetler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 Bob Griese was ok, ike Rocky Blier. How they got into Canton is a mystery to me...nothing exceptional, just part of a great team. Yes, in regards to Hostetler. They? You mean "he"...Griese. Rocky Blier....good guy, good story....NOT in the HOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted July 27, 2017 Report Share Posted July 27, 2017 Fair enough... Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route. Which is the easier route to follow? Land a great QB and build a very good D, or... Build a great D and land a very good QB? Again, it's looking at the breakdown really. I know this is a flawed view to look at it (to a point), but looking at the position a QB was drafted is interesting. Using my list: Manning (x2) Brady Big Ben Brees Rodgers Flacco Wilson Of those 8 guys, both Mannings were drafted first, Ben was 7th (or 8th without looking it up). I'd say those guys were pretty much "land a QB first". Then you have Rodgers, Brees, and Flacco who were mid-to-late first round guys (Brees was technically a 2nd round pick at the time I know). That's a deeper question, but I'd still argue that's closer to "land a QB first". Then you got Brady and Wilson, who by this definition were more of the "good defense first" group. Again, this isn't the best way to look at it without a deeper scope of each of those teams when the dudes got drafted, but overall the answer to me is that it's pretty evenly split. In that regard, I'm fine with what the Browns appear to be doing in building the defense first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkHole Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB? The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D. Neil O'Donnell at QB. Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D. Neil O'Donnell at QB. Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB. They were 5th in scoring offense, 9th in scoring defense. And Dallas was a much better team, it was a weak year for the AFC, Dallas, Green Bay and SF were all better than Pittsburgh. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)? Morris and Csonka both had over 1000 yards apiece while Jim Kiick added another 600 yards during that 14-0 regular season. Posted: January 14, 1974 Super Bowl VIII Miami 24, Minnesota 7 SuperBowl.com wire reports Rice Stadium Houston, Texas January 13, 1974 Attendance: 71,882 MVP: Larry Csonka, RB, Miami SCORING 1 2 3 4 Miami 14 3 7 0 24 Minnesota 0 0 0 7 7 1st Quarter MIA Csonka 5 run (Yepremian kick), 5:27 MIA Kiick 1 run (Yepremian kick), 13:38 2nd Quarter MIA FG Yepremian 28, 8:58 3rd Quarter MIA Csonka 2 run (Yepremian kick), 6:16 4th Quarter MIN Tarkenton 4 run (Cox kick), 1:35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D. Neil O'Donnell at QB. Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB. Neil O'Donnell had a very, very uncharacteristic day that day. He has the lowest career int.% of any retired QB.....Only active players the likes of Rogers, Wilson, and Brady, Derek Carr, Bradford...and....Kaepernick have a better career low career int. %. So, the 3 ints. he threw in that game were highly out of character. So, if he had just done what was usually in his character, they may have won. And the Indians should have won 3 WS since 1995. And the Browns should have won like 9 out of 10 championships back in the 50s. But...shit happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)? Morris and Csonka both had over 1000 yards apiece while Jim Kiick added another 600 yards during that 14-0 regular season. Posted: January 14, 1974 Super Bowl VIII Miami 24, Minnesota 7 SuperBowl.com wire reports Rice Stadium Houston, Texas January 13, 1974 Attendance: 71,882 MVP: Larry Csonka, RB, Miami SCORING 1 2 3 4 Miami 14 3 7 0 24 Minnesota 0 0 0 7 7 1st Quarter MIA Csonka 5 run (Yepremian kick), 5:27 MIA Kiick 1 run (Yepremian kick), 13:38 2nd Quarter MIA FG Yepremian 28, 8:58 3rd Quarter MIA Csonka 2 run (Yepremian kick), 6:16 4th Quarter MIN Tarkenton 4 run (Cox kick), 1:35 The thing that I can say about Griese is that he was the epitome of the "Game Manager" at QB. Hell...the term may have been invented for him. And for that he goes HOF. He was a winner, if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)? The thing that I can say about Griese is that he was the epitome of the "Game Manager" at QB. Hell...the term may have been invented for him. Epitome could be Griese... but could be Starr. A reasonable case can be made that Griese was the last of an era of game managing QBs. Might be Bradshaw, but he bridged into the passing era. Prior to them the game-manager mode was the NFL norm and the gunslinger was the exception. And now we are in an era when the elite are game-managing gunslingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Epitome could be Griese... but could be Starr. A reasonable case can be made that Griese was the last of an era of game managing QBs. Might be Bradshaw, but he bridged into the passing era. Prior to them the game-manager mode was the NFL norm and the gunslinger was the exception. And now we are in an era when the elite are game-managing gunslingers. Yea, Starr could be that, indeed. (Opposed to say, Daryl Lamonica of the same era) But, to be honest....I never thought of Bradshaw as the "game manager" type. Always more the gunslinger type. You have identified that there are "game manager" type QBs...and "gunslinger" type QBs...but AHA!!! you have left out another type of QB: The "system" quarterback!! What about those guys?? Some say that some QBs were only good in certain systems...and would have been average otherwise. Montana? Young? ...if not those two, who may have been well talented in any system....I think it CAN be said for their successor: Jeff Garcia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Lamonica is a great example of a gunslinger. Favre would be my choice to take the prototypical crown. I pretty much think of "system" QBs, i.e., those that play within their offensive system, as game managers. But then I think most identifiable systems as being game-management oriented. The WCO was perhaps the ultimate system and Montana the ultimate purveyor of that system. At it's heart the WCO was a ball control passing attack, a "game-managing" system using the short pass as an extended handoff. Young was a different bred to be sure adding a QB's legs to the equation. Have to credit Walsh for seeing the potential of two such disparate QB skill sets to run his "system". Garcia? An attempt to install a Young clone. Jeff had a good run. Not sure if he simply lacked the skill level or suffered from being an additional generation removed from the architect of the system. Contrast the WCO with the "Run & Shoot" which was a far more aggressive, take your shots system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted July 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Was the "Run and Shoot" ever actually implemented in the NFL? I know Kelly ran it when he was with the Houston Gamblers of the USFL...and went crazy....but that was a lesser league. Not sure it could...or did translate to the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 Oilers ran it under Warren Moon for a few seasons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 Epitome could be Griese... but could be Starr. A reasonable case can be made that Griese was the last of an era of game managing QBs. Might be Bradshaw, but he bridged into the passing era. Prior to them the game-manager mode was the NFL norm and the gunslinger was the exception. And now we are in an era when the elite are game-managing gunslingers. Well said. Both QBs had great lines, RBs/FBs and perimeter help as well as great coaching. It wasn't that I didn't like Griese but sometimes fans start judging QB greatness more on SB ring inventory than anything else. Anyone think Dan Fouts couldn't have won multiple Superbowls in Pittsburgh? Meanwhile, a lot of former League MVP QBs never get their teams to Superbowls. Elway was a betetr QB when he wasn't winning the Superbowl but he had more balanced teams when he did win the Superbowl. Doesn't Peyton Manning's last Superbowl in Denver remind us of that? The irony is Elway was the GM that brought him to Denver. Getting back to what was placed around the game management of Griese, Starr and eventually Bradshaw - my hope is the FO has made this an easier team to QB for whoever wins the starting job. We added some veteran FA linemen that should really help us while I still think a draftee like Shon Coleman can provide reliability now that he's closer to 100%. Njoku should be a real nice target as should DeValve (with a year of experience now under his belt). Kenny Britt arrives with experience we didn't have lining up outside last year (coming off a career best in receptions, going over 1000 yards and scoring 1 more TD than Pryor despite 1 less start). We shall see which our 2016 WR draftees benefit most from 1 year of experience. Hopefully that offseason work Corey Coleman arranged for the WRs and Kessler also helps them. Meatball on spaghetti here, Crow returns as the starting RB coming off 4.8 yards per carry. Stay tuned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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