marcus Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 Well the dude that calmly suggested its ok to strike a 7 yr old for dropping a piece of paper....well....thats nothing to do with being a policeman. Thats beyond the pale and most cops would agree. But i still need an explanation why having that many officers on the scene is more likely to induce an excessive force episode. I think you'll be hard pressed to find an officer that would be in favor of executing another officer for poorly handling a call or not conducting a complete investigation. Most would be on board with termination at the most. A few things I'm learning about you. One you are dead set on your point of view and explaining anything to you from a different point of view is comparable to ice skating uphill. Two, you don't completely read posts. So three, I'll keep this as short as I can so I'm not misunderstood. Any police presence rather it's 1 officer or 100 officers is a use of force. In an escalated situation, other techniques or tools get used. The number of officers on scene has a role of determining rather or not the use of those techniques and tools are reasonable and necessary. The more human beings that occupy a space while physically exerting themselves, the greater chance there is for injury. Not to mention every call police respond to, a gun (the officer's service weapon) is introduced into it. So the more officers the more guns are introduced into that situation. Especially if all or most of the officers get close to the subject thus making those weapons accessible to the subject. Is this making any more sense yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 Any police presence rather it's 1 officer or 100 officers is a use of force. In an escalated situation, other techniques or tools get used. The number of officers on scene has a role of determining rather or not the use of those techniques and tools are reasonable and necessary. The more human beings that occupy a space while physically exerting themselves, the greater chance there is for injury. Not to mention every call police respond to, a gun (the officer's service weapon) is introduced into it. So the more officers the more guns are introduced into that situation. Especially if all or most of the officers get close to the subject thus making those weapons accessible to the subject. Is this making any more sense yet? No it isn't. The call of a car theft came in with the suspect moving in the vehicle. Of course more than 1 officer is going to get called for that in case there's a car chase. So in this case the guy pulls the car over into a parking lot. I guess I'm failing to see how multiple officers on the scene is more conducive to a physical confrontation. If indeed that's what the statistics show, that the greater ratio of police to suspects at the scene more often than not leads to police doing things wrong.................than there's a far bigger problem going on than anyone has any idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 No it isn't. Yes it is. You've been nowhere near a police academy or spent one day in a law enforcement capacity. Yet I am one and train and supervise others for a living. I'm more than confident I know this profession well. The call of a car theft came in with the suspect moving in the vehicle. Of course more than 1 officer is going to get called for that in case there's a car chase. Thus making it more prudent to send 2 to 3 officers to the scene to try to apprehend the suspect. The others (4 to 5 officers) would be utilized to establish a two to three block perimeter in case the suspect goes mobile in effort to shorten a high speed pursuit. They're not doing anything useful on the scene with just one subject. So in this case the guy pulls the car over into a parking lot. I guess I'm failing to see how multiple officers on the scene is more conducive to a physical confrontation. The perception of excessive force is easier to claim or perceive with that many officers are on scene. Even when the force is justified (which is more often than not) we are still battling communities across the country. It's been this way since the Rodney King incident. If indeed that's what the statistics show, that the greater ratio of police to suspects at the scene more often than not leads to police doing things wrong.................than there's a far bigger problem going on than anyone has any idea. Do you think it would be easier to see a suspect resist when dealing with three officers? Or when piled on by eight officers? Also wouldn't there be a lesser chance for confusion if one officer handles verbal commands, one handles handcuffing and searching, and one handles communication with dispatch and other officers? What purpose are the other five serving on the scene? Short answer...no purpose. Other than further escalate a situation that is already tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 No it isn't. The call of a car theft came in with the suspect moving in the vehicle. Of course more than 1 officer is going to get called for that in case there's a car chase. Thus making it more prudent to send 2 to 3 officers to the scene to try to apprehend the suspect. The others (4 to 5 officers) would be utilized to establish a two to three block perimeter in case the suspect goes mobile in effort to shorten a high speed pursuit. They're not doing anything useful on the scene with just one subject. So in this case the guy pulls the car over into a parking lot. I guess I'm failing to see how multiple officers on the scene is more conducive to a physical confrontation. The perception of excessive force is easier to claim or perceive with that many officers are on scene. Even when the force is justified (which is more often than not) we are still battling communities across the country. It's been this way since the Rodney King incident. If indeed that's what the statistics show, that the greater ratio of police to suspects at the scene more often than not leads to police doing things wrong.................than there's a far bigger problem going on than anyone has any idea. Do you think it would be easier to see a suspect resist when dealing with three officers? Or when piled on by eight officers? Also wouldn't there be a lesser chance for confusion if one officer handles verbal commands, one handles handcuffing and searching, and one handles communication with dispatch and other officers? What purpose are the other five serving on the scene? Short answer...no purpose. Other than further escalate a situation that is already tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 Oh well, i guess im failing to see where the number of police officers on the scene in that video is the reason they piled on that guy. U may have valid points about oerimeter and whatnot but still, there was zero reason to tackle that guy on a that we agree. What concerns me is the that if there was only one ir two cops in the scene that video could have been even uglier. U still hav nt addressed, from an instructors perpective, why they went hot that quick. Why didnt they walk around towards the guy, hands on their holsters if need be, and calmly explain to him why they pulled him over. There was a papable presumption of guilt there, that was obvious. Ill bet tyey were like its his car? No shit? Son of a gun. Like they all went and played the lottery that night cause the statistical improbabilities were in the air and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 Yeah as much as it pains me to agree with Cleve it does seem the same to me, besides maybe some statutory bullshit, but the number of officers isnt the problem. Seemed to me the guy got out of the car and put the hand straight up so there wasn't any real need for a rough takedown. No matter if there's three officers or 50. Of course a citizen did call in what appeared to be a car theft. But still... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 Yeah as much as it pains me to agree with Cleve.... WSS Take advantage of ur time around one of the enlightened ones. You never know it could be lifetimes before u run into another one of us again. Learn, absorb.....☕ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 Oh well, i guess im failing to see where the number of police officers on the scene in that video is the reason they piled on that guy. U may have valid points about oerimeter and whatnot but still, there was zero reason to tackle that guy on a that we agree. What concerns me is the that if there was only one ir two cops in the scene that video could have been even uglier. U still hav nt addressed, from an instructors perpective, why they went hot that quick. Why didnt they walk around towards the guy, hands on their holsters if need be, and calmly explain to him why they pulled him over. There was a papable presumption of guilt there, that was obvious. Ill bet tyey were like its his car? No shit? Son of a gun. Like they all went and played the lottery that night cause the statistical improbabilities were in the air and all I have been looking at it from more of a supervisory angle. The need for proper de escalation techniques are clearly needed as well. Much like it was in Baton Rouge. From a supervisory standpoint it's an "Idol hands are the devil's workshop" kind of thing. That in and of itself is a training issue. It's also indicative of how devoid that particular watch is of proper leadership. Not just from supervisors but the officers themselves. The particular name of that paradigm is "pluralistic ignorance" I did blank because other officers were doing so. I think pluralistic ignorance is a side effect of having that many officers on a scene. That was my central theme. This has been very stimulating and will help me be a better instructor and supervisor. Thank you Cleve for sharing this with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 If ur not being facetious....im happy if something that helps comes from this. If you were being sarcastic and facetious......well played. Kind of a win win i always enjoy a proper troll even if im the object of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Wow this board makes one cynical quick doesn't it.???? I'm a sincere guy; sarcasm is wasted words and thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 sarcasm is wasted words and thoughts But..........sarcasm is the backbone to a proper trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcus Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 But..........sarcasm is the backbone to a proper trolling. As Beldar would say......Correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 https://www.yahoo.com/news/authorities-trooper-shot-driver-caused-rollover-225458260.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 What is unpatriotic is to criticize a whole group of people I identify with based on race/religion/color because of the actions of a few. What is unpatriotic calling for the murder of officers of people I identify with based onrace/religion/color over the actions of a few bad apples.. There, fixed to be more honest, because there are few to no people on this board who aren't criticizing an entire group of people that they DON'T identify with based on race/religion/color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 There, fixed to be more honest, because there are few to no people on this board who aren't criticizing an entire group of people that they DON'T identify with based on race/religion/color. Or profession, like law enforcement officer. Or political party like Republican or Democrat. The only one I find valid is Steeler fan. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 Or profession, like law enforcement officer. Or political party like Republican or Democrat. The only one I find valid is Steeler fan. WSS It is hard, very hard, to not criticize all Steelers fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted January 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 It is hard, very hard, to not criticize all Steelers fans. Well i find it incredibly easy, almost duty bound.....oh wait you said "not" yes yes ofc u are correct. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Eater Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 Libs. Quick to condemn all cops on the basis of the actions of a few. Quick to defend Islam because the terrorists don't represent all Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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