Flugel...

OK... there are a few things you have said which are not close to the narrative in the canon.

1. Moses did not commit adultery. He went and found a wife (zipporah I beleive, without looking it up). There is nothing in the text that suggests anything else.

2. The bible does not say thou shalt not kill. It says thou shalt not murder. There is a major distinction in the Hebrew between the two words. Murder is used specifically for what one does unwarranted and is against the law. Kill is what happens in other places, whether it is the killing of a sacrificial animal or the killing of an enemy in war. There simply is no connection between the two words.

Furthermore, to assume that one should equal the other is simply reading your American liberal (or conservative) slant on a text which is not based in 21st century American sensibilities... sensibilities which many around the world regard as absurd anyway.

Holy crap. A Steelers fan contributing worthwhile dialogue to our board. This is an omen of the apocalypse or at least an Adam Sandler movie.

quote:

Originally posted by shepwrite:
Holy crap. A Steelers fan contributing worthwhile dialogue to our board. This is an omen of the apocalypse or at least an Adam Sandler movie.

Where have you been? I've been around here for quite some time!

Maybe you saw those beautiful hypocycloids of yellow, blue and red and just hit the ignore button?

The Bible has several murderers, adulterers, cheats and many many sinners in general. Moses murdered an egyptian soldier. Saul, who before he became the apostle Paul),hunted down and killed Christians as his life's work. He was the one who gave the thumbs up for the apostle Stephen to be stoned to death. King David committed adultery.

The Bible is full of murder, intrigue, wars, and numerous sinners. These examples of sin are there to teach us, and give us examples of what happens to us, when we take our eyes off of God.

It also serves to show us how merciful God is. That he can take the worst of sinners and use them for His good work. It gives hope to all of us, that if God can do these amazing things with Murderers..there is hope for us too.

Churches are not full of righteous people, but sinners.

....The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, “Why do you(Jesus) eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

***********************************************************************************************************C**************** Christ also does not ask us to be penniless and follow him.

He does NOT ask EVERYONE to give up all they have and follow. There are stories of very wealthy followers of God.

Some people in the Bible WERE told to give up all they had and follow Him..because Christ sees the heart of a man..He knew that for these particular individuals ....that money was a barrier between them and God.... and that was why those individual people needed to give it up...because it was separating them from God. That demand is NOT made on all of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Preacher:

quote:

Originally posted by shepwrite:
Holy crap. A Steelers fan contributing worthwhile dialogue to our board. This is an omen of the apocalypse or at least an Adam Sandler movie.

Where have you been? I've been around here for quite some time!

Maybe you saw those beautiful hypocycloids of yellow, blue and red and just hit the ignore button?

OK. You probably knew this... but I didn't know a new Adam Sandler movie was coming out... saw the ad, thought about your post...

Started laughing!

How classic it would be if you really didn't know!

Oh, I knew. If a movie could look stupider in one minute, well... it would be the NEXT Adam Sandler movie.

quote:

Originally posted by shepwrite:
Oh, I knew. If a movie could look stupider in one minute, well... it would be the NEXT Adam Sandler movie.

His last good (comedy) movie was Happy Gilmore.

quote:

Originally posted by Preacher:
1. Moses did not commit adultery. He went and found a wife (zipporah I beleive, without looking it up). There is nothing in the text that suggests anything else.

I'm hesitant to disagree with the Preach, but I think it's more complicated than that. Moses takes Zipporah as his wife in Exodus 3:21. However, Numbers 12:1 mentions that Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses for taking a Cushite woman.

One reading of this verse is that Miriam & Aaron were bothered by Moses taking an additional wife. After all, Zipporah was the daughter of Reuel/Jethro the Midianite, so it'd be weird to call her a Cushite.

However, another reading that Miriam & Aaron were upset that Moses separated from his only wife. God's response - that Moses's prophecy is of a different caliber - would be a proper answer to why Moses had to go celibate, while Miriam & Aaron did not.

The second interpretation doesn't explain why Moses's only wife is referred to as a Cushite, not a Midianite. Indeed, many critical scholars suggest that there were two different narratives about who Moses's wife was, and those narratives were awkwardly woven together in the Bible we currently have.

Either way, it's clear that God chastises Miriam & Aaron for criticizing Moses. But according to at least one reading, Moses engaged in polygamy, and Miriam & Aaron weren't happy about it.

quote:

2. The bible does not say thou shalt not kill. It says thou shalt not murder. There is a major distinction in the Hebrew between the two words. Murder is used specifically for what one does unwarranted and is against the law. Kill is what happens in other places, whether it is the killing of a sacrificial animal or the killing of an enemy in war. There simply is no connection between the two words.

You're right about this. I'd just add a caveat that the Hebrew word used in the decalogue - retzach - appears in cases that aren't straight-forward murder.

For instance, Numbers 35:11 uses the same word to refer to someone who commits an accidental homicide and has to flee to one of the Cities of Refuge.

quote:

Originally posted by Aloysius:

quote:

Originally posted by Preacher:
1. Moses did not commit adultery. He went and found a wife (zipporah I beleive, without looking it up). There is nothing in the text that suggests anything else.

I'm hesitant to disagree with the Preach, but I think it's more complicated than that. Moses takes Zipporah as his wife in Exodus 3:21. However, Numbers 12:1 mentions that Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses for taking a Cushite woman.

One reading of this verse is that Miriam & Aaron were bothered by Moses taking an additional wife. After all, Zipporah was the daughter of Reuel/Jethro the Midianite, so it'd be weird to call her a Cushite.

However, another reading that Miriam & Aaron were upset that Moses separated from his only wife. God's response - that Moses's prophecy is of a different caliber - would be a proper answer to why Moses had to go celibate, while Miriam & Aaron did not.

The second interpretation doesn't explain why Moses's only wife is referred to as a Cushite, not a Midianite. Indeed, many critical scholars suggest that there were two different narratives about who Moses's wife was, and those narratives were awkwardly woven together in the Bible we currently have.

Either way, it's clear that God chastises Miriam & Aaron for criticizing Moses. But according to at least one reading, Moses engaged in polygamy, and Miriam & Aaron weren't happy about it.

quote:

2. The bible does not say thou shalt not kill. It says thou shalt not murder. There is a major distinction in the Hebrew between the two words. Murder is used specifically for what one does unwarranted and is against the law. Kill is what happens in other places, whether it is the killing of a sacrificial animal or the killing of an enemy in war. There simply is no connection between the two words.

You're right about this. I'd just add a caveat that the Hebrew word used in the decalogue - retzach - appears in cases that aren't straight-forward murder.

For instance, Numbers 35:11 uses the same word to refer to someone who commits an accidental homicide and has to flee to one of the Cities of Refuge.

On the former, I don't accept the redaction of sources because it presumes that a redactor was stupid enough to not tie the sources together seamlessly. Thus, there is another reason differing narratives are in the story. My guess would be multiple wives. Josephus has Moses leading an Israelite army against Cush. A war trophy wife is a possible, though hypothetical. Zipporah then would be a second wife. So I agree, Polygamy was a real possibility. However, that is not considered adultery in the text.

On the Hebrew text...

You are exactly right. Their is actually word play going on about having to murder the murderer that murdered. Where we differ, is that I think the text is calling it a straight forward murder. It is murder, with INTENT that dissallows refuge. Murder, without intent, still violates the amago dei and thus, is still murder.

I must tell ya, I am a little surprised to see someone else working at this level on the board. May I ask what you do? PM me if you want.

quote:

Originally posted by Preacher:
On the Hebrew text...

You are exactly right. Their is actually word play going on about having to murder the murderer that murdered. Where we differ, is that I think the text is calling it a straight forward murder. It is murder, with INTENT that dissallows refuge. Murder, without intent, still violates the amago dei and thus, is still murder.

Yeah, I think you're right about the Bible viewing it as murder. In a certain sense, the "murderer" being sent to a City of Refuge is a form of exile, not just a safety measure.

So there's an element of punishment, with the crime being violating the image of God.

quote:

Originally posted by Louisville Slugger:
Jehovah is his real name calling him God is like calling me man. Im not a witness but it does state Gods name in the Bible

here's my main gripe:
"GOD" is a title, not a name. in prayer it is imperative you call god by his name. if you do not how can you be sure who is answering?

wouldn't you concede it's entirely possible someone other than your intended listener could be answering your call?

by referring to him simply as "god" you could be talking to Satan for all you know.

we take phone calls more importantly.
a horrendously monumental oversight, probably 99% of Christians (my fake stats obviously) are taking the risk daily, and I seriously urge all believers to begin heeding this message.

don't say you haven't been warned.

quote:

Originally posted by choco:
can we take this to the political forum....cause id love to add my 2 sense.

i wished someone would but no one did so i finally compromised.
and i don't like it.

quote:

Originally posted by Louisville Slugger:
calfoxwc

How many people do you think prayed to god on 300th floor of the world trade center on 9/11.

I will never pray for god to do me a favor. He wont or cant. Stuff happens. So if you can explain to me why that happened to you and my little brother was born with a disease that killed him 5 days before his 5th birthday Im all ears. God really wanted a baby to never be able to walk or eat? Then let him die leaving his familys life upside down and stuck with the medical bills. This nearly killed my father becuase he wanted to drink that pain away. He wasnt a drinker before but God works in mysterious ways.

Bad stuff happens to good people and vice versa. If you give credit to God for the good make sure take his cruelty with it. If that is your God then I want no part of him.

Im happy you had that experience it makes for a good story but I cant believe God said let this kid who is playing on thin be saved but **** this fetis.

not picking on you louisville, i have agreed with you in the past on this and we haved some similar views here as well.

just playing devil's advocate here, but let's talk after-life and reincarnation for a second. with the body being a mere container for the spirit, there is a definite possibility you might get "sent back" due to "unfinished busines", for lack of a better term.

this may be very poor taste and i really hate to suggest this about your little brother, especially considering the circumstances, but just try to seee where i'm going with this. while i do not believe a "god" will intervene and affect man's free will, i do believe if reincarnation exists it's possible something we did in our past lives must be atoned for and thereby delivered unto Earth under negative circumstances, or like i said, maybe simply unfinished work left to do. this could be through any unlimited number of ways. your brother's life's purpose could have been to inspire, impart growth though experience, to atone, to prepare.......his purpose may have been much more grand than you can even imagine.

as much as this sucks to type it may offer slight insight as to maybe why.
because i do not believe in higher-power intervention on this plane, i do not believe cal's pal was an instrument through which his lord answered his prayers. sorry cal. i simply think the horse was smarter than given credit for. and thankfully so.

or maybe it wasn't..........but we all have stories, including myself. and i asked for a sign....twice.........and got them instantly and irrefutably.
yet he doesn't intervene, right? so who/what was it? that's my dilemma i guess.

in this respect a god does not pick and choose while we are in this form, but in the after-life makes a pass/fail assessment, and continues to "flunk" us until we satisfactorily "graduate".

thoughts such as this are not in that book, but they're in plenty of others!

just food for thought. i really hope it was received well.

quote:

Originally posted by Inspecta51:
I'm pretty sure I've stated this before, but I'll say it again for this thread. If there was no Bible whatsoever, I still would have faith in a power beyond whats in this world. The sum of my faith has been built by life experiences, and how God has guided me (in ways that are quantifiable with real life results). I can't tell you how many times God was nudging me in one direction, and in my own stupid selfish ways decided to go the other way only to meet utter chaos and disappointment.

devil's advocate again, but what if the god nudging you wasn't who you thought it was at all? what if it was Satan etc and when you didn't follow he retaliated? could you really tell the difference?
just saying.

i feel it's entirely possible that if Satan exists, people could be praying to him constantly and not even know it. for years! lol
and he could make it feel oh so good and oh so right too. and you'd be none the wiser.....until you two meet.......

better start addressing that envelope if you don't want someone else reading your mail.

not that deep of a concept yet no one ever sees any validity in this whenever it's mentioned.
i'm not a Witness, just a concerned observer. if if saves only one it was easily worth the typing.

quote:

Originally posted by siskyfringo86:

quote:

Originally posted by Louisville Slugger:
Jehovah is his real name calling him God is like calling me man. Im not a witness but it does state Gods name in the Bible

here's my main gripe:
"GOD" is a title, not a name. in prayer it is imperative you call god by his name. if you do not how can you be sure who is answering?

wouldn't you concede it's entirely possible someone other than your intended listener could be answering your call?

by referring to him simply as "god" you could be talking to Satan for all you know.

we take phone calls more importantly.
a horrendously monumental oversight, probably 99% of Christians (my fake stats obviously) are taking the risk daily, and I seriously urge all believers to begin heeding this message.

don't say you haven't been warned.

quote:

Originally posted by siskyfringo86:
devil's advocate again, but what if the god nudging you wasn't who you thought it was at all? what if it was Satan etc and when you didn't follow he retaliated? could you really tell the difference?
just saying.

i feel it's entirely possible that if Satan exists, people could be praying to him constantly and not even know it. for years! lol
and he could make it feel oh so good and oh so right too. and you'd be none the wiser.....until you two meet.......

better start addressing that envelope if you don't want someone else reading your mail.

not that deep of a concept yet no one ever sees any validity in this whenever it's mentioned.
i'm not a Witness, just a concerned observer. if if saves only one it was easily worth the typing.

There is only one God. And the devil isn't God. If you're praying to God, it doesn't matter if you call him God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Lord - they're all the same person. Just because you choose not to call him one particular name, doesn't mean you might accidentally pray to the devil. You can't do that accidentally, sorry. It's not something the devil is able to intercept like Ty Law against Petyon Manning. Now if you pray to Great Football Master Quarterback In the Sky, I don't think anyone's gonna hear much. But there are countless descriptions in the Bible of people praying to him as and calling him Father, Lord, God, on and on. Whoever taught you that you have to call him one specific thing or else you're praying to the devil is teaching you a bunch of rubbish.

says you. thanks for helping to make my point.

first off, is it really asking that much? look past the dogma and consider the possibility.

if you're scared just say so. it's ok. many hide behind a generic title hoping their vague interpretation will be received by the right person.

if you love him, it shouldn't be a problem. you'd climb to the highest mountain and shout his name at the top of your lungs. that's real faith imho. take a stand and let it be known. make that conscious choice, put your faith in one basket......and say it out loud.

for the record you are saying all other religions are wrong other than Christianity, right?

seems like all the other faiths are saying the same thing about theirs. pretty big gamble, everyone can't be right. if there is the possibility of other sentient beings out there i want my guy to know i'm on his team when the chips fall.

god: "what do you mean? you never worshipped me. you were simply praying to the air, coulda been to anybody. sorry, i can't give you credit son."

sounds ridicuolous to you most likely, but this is a really big deal. one that if you get it wrong......it's game over.

"Just because you choose not to call him one particular name, doesn't mean you might accidentally pray to the devil. You can't do that accidentally, sorry. It's not something the devil is able to intercept like Ty Law against Petyon Manning."

again, says you. my god understands my concerns regarding this and does not expect me to function at his level--he expects me to be a man, a human--with limited thought processes comparitively. i am expected to consider possibilities and make choices, but not to fully understand the powers and limits of deities.........such as knowing if they can or cannot intercept prayer.

i did not limit it to Satan btw, only the possibility you may be praying to someone other than the one intended. a simple concept really.

like i said, if you were to make a reasonably important phone call you'd undoubtedly put forth the effort.

you are apparently willing to take that risk........is it really worth it?

is it really that tough to drop the generic title and name-drop? we're talking about your eternal salvation here!!!

maybe the person teaching you should have seriously considered this. being dogmatic is not an end all be all for me. interpretation is in the eye of the beholder when we're talking about 2,000 year old text.

but, if you want to be lazy and take everything you're told at face value.......so be it. it's your life, soul, and beliefs. do what you want with them.

my out-of-the-box self-preservationist-style will continue to look out for my spirit's best interest.

good luck!! hope to see you safely in the end zone!!

quote:

Originally posted by DieHardBrownsFan:
[QUOTE]Who are you to challenge gods ways? Your an insignificant speck whom was created. Maybe god likes to pull jokes on us, have a little bit of fun now and then? Who knows.

It's all about reading comprehension 101 Blowhard! I'm not challenging God in any way shape or form. If you can't speed read - don't.

I believe in God but I draw the line when other people tell me I'm going to Hell if I don't believe in God the same way they do.

As a kid, I grew up learning the Catholic way until my parents got divorced. All the forgive and forgetsies coupled with don't judge others turned into the Catholic practice called ex-communication. GREAT message for a young kid already troubled by what was going on with his parents. I fully understand I wasn't ex-communicated BUT I started to realize these weren't GOD's rules. They were rules from PEOPLE. These weren't ALL churches rules - they were from 1 specific church. Then I started learning how many types of churches there are.

I'm GLAD people believe in GOD. I'm even HAPPIER people walk the walk. What turns my stomach is when someone tells me I'm going to Hell because I don't believe in God the same way HE does. IMO, that's more obnoxious than my response to it.

As far as the definition of killing vrs murder. We sum up 9/11 as ALOT of Americans got killed. Murdered would be just as accurate. I don't care what word has more vowels or consonents.

The Bible has quite a few different authors and if there wasn't contradiction - we'd all be reading it the SAME way.
- Tom F.

quote:

Originally posted by siskyfringo86:
devil's advocate again, but what if the god nudging you wasn't who you thought it was at all? what if it was Satan etc and when you didn't follow he retaliated? could you really tell the difference?
just saying.

Well when you have two choices in life, one clear "right" answer, and another yet maybe more desirable "wrong" answer, and your getting nudged towards the "right" answer, it's not really debatable on who is nudging you.

Also as you warn about not "addressing the envelope", I too should warn you not to attribute to Satan things God has done.

In the context in which Jesus discusses such actions he uses the term "blasphemy of the holy spirit". Remember the story of the pharisees? Jesus performed some miracles, and they attributed it to Satan, in which Jesus says, how can Satan toss out Satan? Then he goes on to say blasphemy of the holy spirit is the only unforgivable sin. However attributing to God something Satan did is not mentioned in the same breathe. So we can infer from scripture that it's not a two way street.

Of that I would be very careful friend.


There is a lot of debate as to what powers demons have, and lets be clear, we are discussing demons not Satan. Satan cannot hear prayers, he is not everywhere, and he is not all knowing. Chances are Satan has no clue who I am. But I know his demons know who I am.


On the contrary though, God IS everywhere, and He does know everything. So a prayer made in earnest to Him will always be heard if your heart is right, please don't make the legalistic mistake of thinking if you don't invoke the correct names then He will be ignorant to your prayers.

Also not sure if it was you, but Jehovah is NOT the name of God. Jehovah is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew word Yahweh. Yahweh is the real name of God. Also in the list is Elohim and Adonai.




i feel it's entirely possible that if Satan exists, people could be praying to him constantly and not even know it. for years! lol
and he could make it feel oh so good and oh so right too. and you'd be none the wiser.....until you two meet.......

better start addressing that envelope if you don't want someone else reading your mail.

not that deep of a concept yet no one ever sees any validity in this whenever it's mentioned.
i'm not a Witness, just a concerned observer. if if saves only one it was easily worth the typing.[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Preacher:
Flugel...

OK... there are a few things you have said which are not close to the narrative in the canon.

Preacher,
I added the Flugel version inclusive of special effects. Believe it or not, I think believing in God is admirable - especially when people LIVE it. Someone mentioned their way of entering Heaven and it just rubbed me the wrong way because it sort of implied noone else's way was correct. There's SEVERAL ways to worship and SHOW your commitment. Some might even be better than others but when PEOPLE, not to be confused with God, t