quote:

Originally posted by Preacher:

quote:

Originally posted by Timugen:

quote:

Originally posted by SEZ.EJ:
Has no concept of who God and Christ are.

First off...that kid is obviously a nut case and I don't want any of the following of what I say to be misconstrued as a defense of him...so here goes...

As if you do have a true concept of who God and Christ are? And that's assuming they are actually real. The only "concepts" you may think you have are merely recitations of dogma that has been politically manipulated over a couple thousand years which was "originally" based on a bunch of stories only finally "recorded" several decades after Jesus Christ was actually living. How well do you remember details and quotes of what people said 40, 50, 60+ years ago? Throw into that mix the multitude of translations those stories have went through, and your concepts of God and Christ don't seem so solid. Again, that is assuming God and Christ are actually real.

Their are a lot of assumptions there that don't match with the reality of biblical tranmission/translation.

I don't want to hijack this thread with it, but if you want to have a discussion about it... let me know and we can start another thread in a more appropriate part of this forum.

Thanks for the response Preacher.

I would just like to let you know that I respect your beliefs and that in which you have faith, but at the same time do not believe in it myself.

If we were to have a discussion on the matter, I believe you would find that I am slightly more familiar with the facts of the matter and the histories of the various Christian churches than your average "atheist" (and for the record, I'm agnostic.)

The aforementioned discussion, however, would predictably end in a virtual head-butt, with you citing faith and scraps of confirmed evidence that back relatively insignificant details of the bible, and me pointing not only the lack of proof of much of what is actually significant but also pointing out the multitude of theological contradictions within the bible even if one were to assume everything in it were "true."

I've had this discussion multiple times with several different people who practiced many different denominations of Christianity and it always ends with the same result. They stick by their "faith" against all reason while I stick to reason.

That won't change in the next such discussion I have, so while I thank you for taking the time to respond to what I wrote, I also hope you understand why I choose to save us both some wasted time and keystrokes.

I'm just amazed that this thread is still going. A sign of the apocalypse?

The devils greatest accomplishment is to have everyone believe he does not exist. Many of you have bought into this lie; hook, line, and sinker.

Many Books in the Bible (new testament) are based upon EYEWITNESS testimony....not just made up stories. People who followed, learned from, and had encounters with Christ himself. They witnessed his death. The Romans always made sure you died. These people saw him after he rose. More than 500 saw him after his resurrection.

Paul who made a living killing and jailing Christians ended up writing most of the new testament after he encountered Christ. Why would a guy who earned a living killing Christians turn around to the point he ended up going to jail(several times), was beaten (several times), and later killed (only once) in his efforts to teach and tell others about salvation only Christ can give.

The eyewitness testimonies are still there for us to read. People who in turn gave their lives (were killed) to tell others about Christ. What they saw with thier own eyes.

If that was all a fake..Do you REALLY think that many people would actually DIE to perpetuate what they know is a lie? Think about it..You can carry on a lie only but so far..But would you DIE FOR IT???...You would say...OK, just kidding guys..it was a hoax.Please don't kill me, It's not worth the lie....But no..they gave their lives.... were killed.. THAT is real inner strength. There is no greater love than to lay down your life for another.

We were created to be spiritual beings and serve God. Many of you want to believe the science of evolution. If that is true, than your life is worthless, pointless, and has no meaning....Why???.Because if evolution is true, then we are no different than cattle. Just like dumb cows standing out in the field. We are not cattle. We have a purpose.

As i said before. I cannot convince you of anything. Only YOU can change your mind. But you do have choices.

Sluggo, you are just one of many bijjilion people to have asked that question.

Why indeed. To belligerantly suppose God wants children to suffer, etc., diverts attention from the real question:

Why do you get angry at other's belief in God?

We certainly ask questions, and answers may very well only come later, in a better place.

Why doesn't God arrange for everyone to be saved? I contemplated that question for years.

There never was a time when I arrived at the answer. There was never a time when I figured it would have happened without God knowing Chico would be there for me.

I can only tell you that the miracle of this planet and the stars and the universe and my heart and my experience that one winter - showed me that I had great reason to believe and know God is there.

I have a disdain for religion - churches are great places to go, but for the fact that on Sundays there are people there.

I could go into the Angelic Conflict, etc, but I would defer explanations from a Biblical perspective to Preacher.

quote:

Originally posted by SEZ.EJ:
The devils greatest accomplishment is to have everyone believe he does not exist. Many of you have bought into this lie; hook, line, and sinker.

.

No, religions greatest accomplishment is that people buy that line.

Ever notice how religion uses fear? So do dictators.

I can't help it... this stuff is always fascinating to me.

We don't know. Period. That's the great summary of the whole conversation.

You can believe or not believe, have faith or not have faith, but in the end, we're an entire planet of agnostics.

Because we don't know. If I say I know there isn't a god, I'm a liar. If you say you know there is, you're a liar.

Neither of us is that powerful or that connected.

In the end, it's mostly a choice, I guess... unless you just say, "I don't know."

I always liked the response to the atheist:

"Not believing in God takes as much faith as believing in him."

What side would you rather place your faith in?

That being said, I am not a big fan of church or organized religion.

I believe faith is an individual choice, period. Whatever it takes to sustain someone's inner drive is fine. For example, faith in our nation's prisons has done wonders in turning people's future around.

Things I don't get: Why do people who practice faith feel so condescending toward those who don't....and ...why do people who don't have faith feel the need to condemn those who do?

Bottom line; when you're beliefs affect other people, you're out of line. If you're an atheist, you don't need to berate a Christian. If you're a Christian, you don't need to preach to an agnostic.

I'm not a fan of church or religion, IMO many use it to prop their collective self esteems, of which I don't have a problem. I personally don't need it, but I know that I may somehere down the line, and I'm good with that.

quote:

Originally posted by DesertDawg:

quote:

Originally posted by SEZ.EJ:
The devils greatest accomplishment is to have everyone believe he does not exist. Many of you have bought into this lie; hook, line, and sinker.

.

No, religions greatest accomplishment is that people buy that line.

Ever notice how religion uses fear? So do dictators.

DesertDawg:

I am not sure where you have been introduced to Christianity. If it is based upon fear ..then you have been listenting to the wrong people.

My belief is based upon God's love. Fear has nothing to do with it. I was afraid before I had a relationship with Christ. I am not afraid of anything anymore. Because I know that no matter what happens, good or bad. I will be with God who loves me.

God loves us so much..he sent his Son to die and take on our sins... Where is the fear there????

The devil is the one who has perpetuated the lie that God is this angry ruler, waiting to punish us.. It's not true!!! God loves us and wants us to be with him.

He has made salvation available to each and every one of us. He however gives us the freedom to decide for ourselves. That is why he is not a dictator...he does not force anything on us. We have free will to chose him or not to chose him. Dictators do not give people choices.

Dawg: I think you should investigate further..Fear has nothing to do with the Christianity I know. It's all about love brother. I am sorry you have been taught that following Christ is about fear..but you have been getting the wrong message.

quote:

Originally posted by Timugen:

quote:

Originally posted by Preacher:

quote:

Originally posted by Timugen:

quote:

Originally posted by SEZ.EJ:
Has no concept of who God and Christ are.

First off...that kid is obviously a nut case and I don't want any of the following of what I say to be misconstrued as a defense of him...so here goes...

As if you do have a true concept of who God and Christ are? And that's assuming they are actually real. The only "concepts" you may think you have are merely recitations of dogma that has been politically manipulated over a couple thousand years which was "originally" based on a bunch of stories only finally "recorded" several decades after Jesus Christ was actually living. How well do you remember details and quotes of what people said 40, 50, 60+ years ago? Throw into that mix the multitude of translations those stories have went through, and your concepts of God and Christ don't seem so solid. Again, that is assuming God and Christ are actually real.

Their are a lot of assumptions there that don't match with the reality of biblical tranmission/translation.

I don't want to hijack this thread with it, but if you want to have a discussion about it... let me know and we can start another thread in a more appropriate part of this forum.

Thanks for the response Preacher.

I would just like to let you know that I respect your beliefs and that in which you have faith, but at the same time do not believe in it myself.

If we were to have a discussion on the matter, I believe you would find that I am slightly more familiar with the facts of the matter and the histories of the various Christian churches than your average "atheist" (and for the record, I'm agnostic.)

The aforementioned discussion, however, would predictably end in a virtual head-butt, with you citing faith and scraps of confirmed evidence that back relatively insignificant details of the bible, and me pointing not only the lack of proof of much of what is actually significant but also pointing out the multitude of theological contradictions within the bible even if one were to assume everything in it were "true."

I've had this discussion multiple times with several different people who practiced many different denominations of Christianity and it always ends with the same result. They stick by their "faith" against all reason while I stick to reason.

That won't change in the next such discussion I have, so while I thank you for taking the time to respond to what I wrote, I also hope you understand why I choose to save us both some wasted time and keystrokes.

Interestingly, you claim that reason is on your side, yet many who stuck to reason, and are much smarter than you or I, have ended up coming to faith based on that reason... C.S. Lewis being one, One of the greatest atheist thinkers, and most prominent atheist in Brittan, Antony Flew also came to faith, based on reason.

So you can't claim reason as the foundational reason why you don't believe in God. You can only claim your construct of reason, which may or may not be solid.

I'm particularly fascinated in what the word "God" means to people.

Does it mean a being? Does it/he/she have gender? Is it a superior race, and therefore he/she is one of many? Is it a "force," or a power beyond our understanding, something that connects us all?

Do you think there's also a "devil," or negative/evil force?

Do either of these beings/forces exist in our dimension? Can they be reached if we somehow found the zip code? If not, do you think they exist in a different or higher dimension?

Where IS "God?" "Satan?" How do you visualize it, if you choose to believe in one, the other, or both?

Do you practice a religion with a literal conviction? As in, do you think your religion knows the secret while all the other world religions are mistaken? Or do you kinda/sorta believe what your religion says, with an eye to something deeper, more profound, more complex?

It's fascinating stuff.

Sez,climb down off the soapbox.
If there is anything beyond this life im sure that how you conducted yourself and treated your fellow man would suffice most peoples understandings of what people consider "god" and you would be judged on that.
To many people run to church on sunday and meet the mistress on monday,and talk down to you for not having gone to mass,please.



SEZ.EJ
Pro Bowl Player
Posted Sun November 25 2007 11:15 PM Hide Post

DD: My wife and I have 50 yard line tix.. We will probably have lunch at the city center before the game, do some xmas shopping. We don't drink so tailgating with us would be kind of boring. But maybe we can work something out to at least meet. Where do you live? I am in Tucson.
Posts: 947 | Location: Tucson | Registered: Wed February 14 2007




SEZ.EJ
Pro Bowl Player
Posted Sun December 23 2007 08:50 PM Hide Post

What amazes me is I was hammered when I hinted that this could be a trap game. Any division game is a ballbuster.. Anyone who knows football knows that a division team is going to try to spoil you and bring their best game. They have to see you 2x next year and no one will lay down. These guys work too hard and are always playing for their football life/job/position on the depth chart/ career/ OH I forgot to mention next contract$$$..
Posts: 947 | Location: Tucson | Registered: Wed February 14 2007




So were you hammered and drunk,or were you sober and dont drink?
Praise god and ask forgivness for your bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by danamal:

To many people run to church on sunday and meet the mistress on monday,and talk down to you for not having gone to mass,please.

Danamal...

Please.

You the mistress has to be on Tuesday because midweek church should be Wednesday!

LOL.. While I am poking fun at this, it is a sad fact that too many people who CLAIM faith live this way. However, there are two other facts involved. 1. many people claim Christianity because of tradition, culture, etc. however, that doesn't mean they truly are, or understand what it means to be a Christian. Thus, they cannot be held as ambassadors of the faith. 2. We are just human. I am a pastor, and am going back to school to be a seminary professor to train other pastors. However, I am still human. I make stupid mistakes. I get mad when I am cut off in traffic, and say things I probably shouldn't at times.

However, just because I am human and make mistakes doesn't invalidate my belief, or the faith.

quote:

Originally posted by danamal:
Sez,climb down off the soapbox.
If there is anything beyond this life im sure that how you conducted yourself and treated your fellow man would suffice most peoples understandings of what people consider "god" and you would be judged on that.
To many people run to church on sunday and meet the mistress on monday,and talk down to you for not having gone to mass,please.



SEZ.EJ
Pro Bowl Player
Posted Sun November 25 2007 11:15 PM Hide Post

DD: My wife and I have 50 yard line tix.. We will probably have lunch at the city center before the game, do some xmas shopping. We don't drink so tailgating with us would be kind of boring. But maybe we can work something out to at least meet. Where do you live? I am in Tucson.
Posts: 947 | Location: Tucson | Registered: Wed February 14 2007




SEZ.EJ
Pro Bowl Player
Posted Sun December 23 2007 08:50 PM Hide Post

What amazes me is I was hammered when I hinted that this could be a trap game. Any division game is a ballbuster.. Anyone who knows football knows that a division team is going to try to spoil you and bring their best game. They have to see you 2x next year and no one will lay down. These guys work too hard and are always playing for their football life/job/position on the depth chart/ career/ OH I forgot to mention next contract$$$..
Posts: 947 | Location: Tucson | Registered: Wed February 14 200

So were you hammered and drunk,or were you sober and dont drink?
Praise god and ask forgivness for your bullshit.

*****************************************************************

Danamal: Strike 3..Your out.. You missed this completely..When I said I was hammered. I meant I was hammered by the people on this board. In other words: bashed, abused, ridiculed, scolded,..ie: "hammered" from the others posters on this board for saying that the Bengals game was a trap game..NOT hammered as in being drunk... You need to read that clip you cut and pasted again bro.... When I said the Bengles game was a trap game... I got trashed (not drunk) by the others on the board because everyone was so sure we were going to win that game.

And as it turns out, I was right...it was a trap game..we lost...It's all good though...i can understand how the word hammered can be misunderstood if that is the term you use for being drunk.. but look at the context of the message again. I think you can see I was not talking about being drunk.

Oh, bye the way... I hope you didn't spend too much time digging through old posts from last year for something to try to hang me with. You're a real trooper.

Trust me Danamal.. If you want to find some evil I have done in my past, you won't need to look far.. I don't pretend to be a saint. God bless you brother.

quote:

Originally posted by Timugen:
1. They don't (ask a police detective.) And I specifically referred to details and quotes (which kinda play a big part in the whole Christianity deal.) Of course people can recollect cities, battles, significant people, etc.
Umm, yes. Josephus nailed the details too. That's why I brought this particular piece up. It's kind of ground-breaking. Garrison locations, weapons therein, Roman legion quantities, etc. His account of the battle covered a little more than "arrows, troops, and well, troops."
I think that covers a lot more detail than seeing how many different ways you can write "love thy neighbor as thyself."

2. As any linguist would tell you, things DO get not only lost but also sometimes twisted in translation. Remember that exercise in grade school with a line of kids where you whispered to the kid next to you a message that was passed on to you? That involved one language and about 15 minutes...I wonder how it would turn out with multiple languages and hundreds of years?
No doubt I agree that is certainly possible, and has absolutely happened. My wife would be the 1st person to tell you I dont listen at all. But again, that is why particularly brought this case up. Because, it didn't.

3. It's not a friggin' conspiracy theory. Do a little research on how what is and what ISN'T in your bible came to be there. It was a purely political process... and at no point did I claim anything close to a conspiracy.
You don't have to actually say something to imply it. I'd struggle to find a more appropriate synonym for "politically manipulated."
But I get what you're saying and know that "editing" has definitely taken place for political/mind control purposes.


Sorry Legacy, I'm not trying to get into a liturgical argument here I don't think we've come anywhere close to the liturgy, have we?... I merely chimed in on this thread when SEZ made such absolute statements about people's concepts of God and Christ.
I happen to agree with SEZ's statements which are obviously very personal and rely largely on faith. I only chimed in when you made such absolute statements about absolute historical inaccuracies.

quote:

Originally posted by SEZ.EJ:
Many of you want to believe the science of evolution. If that is true, than your life is worthless, pointless, and has no meaning....Why???.Because if evolution is true, then we are no different than cattle. Just like dumb cows standing out in the field. We are not cattle. We have a purpose.

So you're saying that the people who lived before the Bible was written (or who had the good fortune of being one of the twelve tribes) were cattle whose lives were meaningless? That would help to make one feel better about the butchery that's advocated in the Old Testament.

Even if we are just another species on earth, does that make life meaningless? Does the Bible suggest that animals are worthless? Maybe the point of our lives is to, yes, fulfill the biological imperative (also known as being fruitful and multiplying), but also to behave ethically, take care of each other, and find things that give us pleasure. There's plenty of passages in the Bible that have no quarrel with that.

Dennis

quote:

Originally posted by shepwrite:
I'm particularly fascinated in what the word "God" means to people.

Does it mean a being? Does it/he/she have gender? Is it a superior race, and therefore he/she is one of many? Is it a "force," or a power beyond our understanding, something that connects us all?

Do you think there's also a "devil," or negative/evil force?

Do either of these beings/forces exist in our dimension? Can they be reached if we somehow found the zip code? If not, do you think they exist in a different or higher dimension?

Where IS "God?" "Satan?" How do you visualize it, if you choose to believe in one, the other, or both?

Do you practice a religion with a literal conviction? As in, do you think your religion knows the secret while all the other world religions are mistaken? Or do you kinda/sorta believe what your religion says, with an eye to something deeper, more profound, more complex?

It's fascinating stuff.

Pretty much the same questions I've always asked.

Prime Mover http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

Yeah, Ice, if you try to conjure "God" as a three-dimensional or tangible being, it gets kind of crazy. Where IS he/she/it?

And if you say it's another dimension, and you're stoned in a dorm room, I can tell you that's an entire night right there. Is he (for the sake of simplicity) alone or among others? If he's alone... who made him? How did he get there?

Oh, man. I just had a flash back and I'm useless for the rest of the day.

Shep I understand that the escalation of thought on the subject of God can be mind boggling to say the very least. The great question, who created God, is one shared by many of us.

I have pondered it many times, however I feel that not too much time should be devoted to such questions. Once you come to the conclusion that there is in fact a God, then the next questions to follow should be as follows

1. What's my relationship with him? (if any)

2. What's my place in this world that he has created and inhabited with people?

3. What does he desire from me? (if anything)

I know for the non-believer the shield of "faith" can be frustrating when debating, however anybody with an ounce of credibility cannot for a moment say that they can prove that there is a God without a shred of doubt. No, God has made very sure that choosing to believe in him is a free choice. If there were irrefutable proof, then free will (at least when it comes to believing in Him or not) would not exist. It is my belief that He's pretty big on us having a choice.


I don't begrudge anybody for not having faith, I just find it funny that there are Browns fans who don't believe in God. Apparently it's too hard to believe in an omnipotent creator, but believing that Charlie Frye was going to be a good QB was no problem. (take it easy fellas, thats a joke)...

I'm pretty sure I've stated this before, but I'll say it again for this thread. If there was no Bible whatsoever, I still would have faith in a power beyond whats in this world. The sum of my faith has been built by life experiences, and how God has guided me (in ways that are quantifiable with real life results). I can't tell you how many times God was nudging me in one direction, and in my own stupid selfish ways decided to go the other way only to meet utter chaos and disappointment.


As to your question about God's home address, well I don't think its too far fetched to say its in another dimension or hell, he could be in this universe in some far distant galaxy just chillin' waiting for us to show up. Heck, He made the universe big enough. Take a look at pictures of nebula's. There's one thats called the eye of God, and for good reason. The shapes that keep cropping up in all of nature (such as the shape of a hurricane, or a galaxy) offer a nod to there being one creator in charge of the whole thing. Either way, where exactly he resides is of little consequence to me, I'm more concerned with what He wants me to accomplish while I'm here on earth.