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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters  |
Must have missed it. I'm sure it was a riot. WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Yep. I'm aware of that policy.
Now, do you have evidence that Obama was a recipient of one of those discretionary spots? That's what you need to make that claim. Seems like the evidence suggests he was one of the top people in his class, and didn't need help at all. |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
You're obviously backtracking, and still have yet to provide an ounce of evidence to back your first claim, or even this one.
The one you say you knew all about? Then you're asking me to prove it isn't true?? I did? I thought I asked if you believed it. WSS And where is your evidence to back up the idea that "He got the Harvard law review gig through affirmitive action"? Either provide some, or retract it.[/QUOTE] Harvard still post GPA and rankings? WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Steve, you're missing the essential component for having these discussions. If you're going to make a claim like that, you have to have evidence that it's true.
So when you ask me whether or not I believe it, this is why one of us is having a serious discussion, and one isn't - you'd like to believe it's true, and do. I'd like to know if it is true. Any serious person is going to have to know something is true to make a claim like that. Whether or not someone believes something to be true is irrelevant. You made the claim that he got the Harvard Review gig because of affirmative action. You have no evidence to support that. At first we were talking about the presidency, which we've discovered is elected and has no affirmative action policy. Now the "gig" we're talking about is as editor of the Law Review. You've produced a policy that shows that a portion of the editor slots may be used to implement an affirmative action policy. You don't have any evidence that would suggest that Obama made editor in one of these slots, which is what you'd need to have in order to make that claim. Instead, what you're doing is assuming (twice) that since he is black he couldn't have won one of those 34 slots based on either first-year grades and their competition scores, or competition scores alone, even though the evidence suggests that he was a top-tier student. He must have needed the help of an affirmative action policy. That's all you have. A black guy and a policy. You put the rest together in your head, without evidence. Again, do you have evidence that Obama "got the Harvard law review gig through affirmitive action"? |
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Hall of Famer |
Harvard doesn't rank its law students. Had he just been an editor of the Review, then the whole argument here would still have been entirely speculative--the Review has speculative picks, he worked for the Review, therefore he received a speculative pick; prove that he didn't. Or prove that he did, for that matter.
However, he wasn't just an editor, he was elected President. By his fellow law students--a group not universally known for throwing around major appointments because it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy. Then again, they elected a woman at some point as well, so maybe there's something to it. Dennis |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Oh. He was also elected president of his law class?
Holy crap. I'm sort of starting to resent him a little. He's way too smart, way too hard working, way more focused than I've ever been. He's achieved, man. He's elite. Oh, NOW I get it! |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
You are correct. So I'll admit I overstated. The most I should have rightly said is that affirmitiva action is certainly practiced at the HLR. I'd also point out that given the racial tensions at Harvard at the time that his appointment surely seems to at least be partially due to race. And that there is a chance it played no part whatsoever and the position was granted for no other reason than GPA. It doesn't seem that way to me. Is that fair? WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
NO!
You have no indication that "his appointment surely seems to at least be partially due to race." None. The fact that there were "racial tensions" at the time is not proof that Obama "surely seemed to have" received preference because of his race. You've gone from "he got the gig because of affirmative action" to "he surely seems to have gotten the gig at least partially due to his race." This is your great leap forward? And if you look at the policy, no one is admitted "for no other reason than GPA." So I guess it doesn't seem that way to me either, because in no cases is GPA is not the only criteria for selection. The correct answer is: I have no evidence that race played a factor in Barack Obama becoming an editor of the Law Review. Do you realize that you keep ignoring the possibility that Obama was one of the top students at Harvard Law, even though we know he graduated magna and two of Harvard Law's top professors have publicly stated that he was one of the, if not THE, best student they'd ever had, and that he eventually was voted in as president by the other editors? Why do you do this? Why is it so hard for you to accept the possibility that he earned this on merit alone? For you to say the evidence suggests that he was admitted as an affirmative action selection you'd at least have to show that he underperformed as a student. Do you have any of that evidence? Something tells me you don't. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
I get the sense that Steve's bizarre reasoning strategies are flying just fine in the bar... and he can't figure out why they go down in flames here.
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Would it be so hard for you to accept the possibility that race may well have been one factor? WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
You really don't get it, do you?
To say that he was an affirmative action admission is to say that he wasn't qualified enough on his own. It's a putdown. You made that putdown. Then you made it again. And when pressed, you've not been able to substantiate it in any other way other than to say that A) Barack Obama is black, B) there was racial tension at Harvard Law at the time, and C) the HLR has a portion of its editor positions that may be filled by using affirmative action criteria. Which is to say, you haven't substantiated it at all. And I'd be perfectly willing to say it's possible that he was a beneficiary of affirmative action if I saw a shred of evidence that he wasn't competitive with the other students in his class. I haven't seen any evidence of that, and you certainly haven't produced any. In fact, we've only seen evidence to the contrary. A good deal of it, in fact. It's as though you assume that every black who made editor at the HLR must have been an affirmative action admission. You don't seem to think there's any way they'd be on there simply because of merit, despite the evidence in front of us that suggests that he was an exceptional student and that his first-year grades must have put him toward the top of his class. It seems that this is very hard for you to give up on. Against all evidence, you're holding out hope that race played a role. What the reason for this is I can only guess. |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Don't play games. I backed that up a little. Affirmitive action does not mean (to me) that an unqualified person gets a job. A few points one way or the other is not a deal breaker. It does mean that race will be a deciding factor. And it's been a major focus of the entire primary whether you choose to believe it or not. WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Ha. Now we're going to change the subject to the primary?
You. Were. Wrong. So was your radio host. Who would have thought a talk radio host would spread shitty information? When does that ever happen? |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
No he was right. He was reading something from the HLR that stated pretty much what you stipulated. I guees you'd agree that the selelction process has not always used race as a factor. (well maybe not you but...) All I backed off from is suggesting that was the sole reason. Shouldn't have allowed you to nit pick. That's always dangerous in a bickerfest, so from now on if I suggest "always" or "all" or "never" tha tI do understand absolutes are rare. And at the end of it all I still think it was a factor. If you don't oh well. WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Steve, there are 34 editor positions where it's clearly spelled out that race will not be a factor whatsoever. They go to the 34 students that achieve the highest in the competition and the classroom. Race does not figure into who gets those positions at all.
By continuing to suggest that you still believe that race was a factor shows that somewhere in that head of yours you don't believe that a black person could possibly have been one of those 34. I guess after your multiple "illiterate criminals on welfare" rants this shouldn't come as much of a surprise, but is this what you really believe? Is it possible that a black student achieved so highly that he netted one of those 34 slots? How about one who graduated magna cum laude, was eventually elected president of the HLR by his fellow editors, and is described by some of his professors as one of the best students they've ever had? You're saying it's more likely he was not one of those 34? That's what you believe? |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
I think I've been clear enough, Heck. Given the highly charged racial tension at Harvard at the time I can't imagine that race had absolutely nothing to to with it. WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
No, you haven't been clear enough.
There are between 41 and 43 students "invited to join the Review each year.” 14 of them "are selected based on a combination of their first-year grades and their competition scores." 20 of them "are selected based solely on their competition scores." The remaining 7-9 of them "are selected on a discretionary basis. Some of these discretionary slots may be used to implement the Review's affirmative action policy." Those 34 slots have nothing to do with race at all. And of the 7-9 remaining spots, only "some" "may be" used to implement the affirmative action policy. They don't "have to be" used to implement the policy. Are you saying you think it stands to reason that he wasn't one of the 34, and was more likely one of these affirmative action hires? Are you saying they graded him on a curve because he's black? What are you suggesting? |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Heck,. I'd bet the senator himself would admit the possibility that race may have been one factor. And I'd bet he would not (and should not) be ashamed even if that were true given his accomplishments. And I'd bet dollars to dogturds that there was some kind of movement afoot to place a Black man. And I'd guess a major direction during his college career was civil rights. As a side note I'd bet that McCains POW statuse, Ferraro and Hillary's gender and Bush's last name were factors in their political careers. But I probably couldn't find hard evidence of it. WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
You're missing the point and talking about things that are irrelevant to this conversation at the same time.
Either he was one of those 34, and race wasn't a factor, or he could have been admitted in one of those slots where the affirmative action policy played a role. Are you suggesting that even if he were in the 34, which seems likely, that race still played a factor? If so, how? And where are you getting this information? Or are you still suggesting that you think he was allowed in because of affirmative action? |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
I'm saying that could certainly be a factor. No matter how many times you try to reframe the4 question to get an absolute. I could do that but you wouldn't answer so.... WSS |
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