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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
I'm just saying, I don't think you need to abbreviate God damn is all.
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Gotcha.
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I'd prefer not to say it at all, but it slips, along with the rest of the __-bombs (excluding "n"). |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
I'm kind of still waiting for a reply to this: do we really think Obama didnt know this about his pastor?
I understand that Rev Wright has also said some loving things and helped out in the community, but cant the same be said for Farrakhan? While reaching out to the community and inspiring people to follow God, Wright was telling them that God "participates in the destruction of the white enemy". It's okay that Obama was a member of that church for 20 years? It still bothers me. Am I wrong? |
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AFC North Player of the Month |
I don't think you're wrong to be bothered, Toop, but I'm not sure that this is the biggest deal in the world.
You seem to be a church-going guy. Do you hear or see things at your church that you disagree with? Do you protest those things? Do you switch churches because of them? I get that this is different and Wright's comments were way overboard so I know it's not exactly the same. My point is that if you are truly a part of a church community, then you stay a part of it, even if you disagree with some aspects of what the leader or other fellow community members say. What would you say about him if he bounced from church to church based on that Sunday's sermon? Wouldn't you rightly say that it appeared he had no real attachment to any place, any community? I certainly would. I don't buy that Obama didn't know about Wright's views but I do believe Obama challenged him on them and I think it's entirely likely that Obama's viewpoint on racial issues was molded through such conversations. If Obama could hone his message with such a fiery goofball as Wright, that can only be to his betterment. |
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AFC North Player of the Month |
Oh. My bad. Sorry for the overreaction. Though I stick to my point about you and religious dialogue. I do wish you'd apply your considerable brain power to having the discussion instead of evading it. We'd all be better off for it. |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
This isnt one sermon I'm talking about, it is the theology of the pastor. It isnt one message, it's the underlying system of what he believes in. If my pastor gave a poor sermon, I wouldnt freak out, but if he told me that he believes in a god that participates in the destruction of the black enemy, then I would absolutely leave the church...for good. If he believed in a god that was for white people and against black people, then he isnt talking about the God of the Bible. I go to church for more than just community. If not, why check for the religion before entering the door? I might as well spend my Sundays at a Mosque if beliefs aren't a deciding factor in my membership there. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Is this stuff from Cone on the Trinity Baptist website, or do they just reference his name?
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Hall of Fame Legend |
From the website: "The vision statement of Trinity United Church of Christ is based upon the systematized liberation theology that started in 1969 with the publication of Dr. James Cone’s book, Black Power and Black Theology." The rest is Cone's definition of Black Liberation Theology. Wright is also on the Board of Directors of the Black Theology Project, which was formerly chaired by Cone. Wright's semi-frequent references to South Africa are seen as coming out of Cone's tradition - South Africa is seen by many as the birthplace of many of BLT's more radical views. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
So now we're two people removed from Obama. He's not only got to answer for his pastor's comments, you'd like to answer for Cone's as well?
Do you have evidence Wright told Obama "that he believes in a god that participates in the destruction of the black enemy"? As a side note, someone who has read his first book (I have not) said there's a part in it where Obama is frustrated with the progress of his community work, and seeks someone's advice. And they ask him, "Well, what church do you attend? Where do you go on Sundays?" And this is how he comes to Trinity Baptist. |
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calfoxwc Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters  |
Is there anyone who really believes that Obumba didn't know the radical, hateful, racially inflammatory oratory of Rev. Wright happened?
First, he said he wasn't there when the statements were made. Now, he admits he was there and heard some of those things. Now, Obumba has said his white grandmother had said things that bothered him in the past, but that was just a reaction just like typical white people. The phoney bark is falling off the tree. I tried to be fair about him, but he's the major cog in his own undoing. That, and his wife saying that she's always been ashamed of America til "now"... Geez, even Oprah Winfrey quit that church because of Wright. McCain will be the next president of the United States, and rightly and justly so. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Just out of curiosity - how does a few paragraphs from a couple short columns make you completely understand what kind of politician this guy is? Seems like you've been waiting very patiently for this moment. What makes McCain so much more attractive for America? How is he BETTER? For that matter, what makes him the best leader AMERICA can find? I don't SEE or HEAR a leader when I watch and listen to him. Part of being a leader means you HAVE to be that speaker, have that charisma and INSPIRE those people. I look at McCain and see an old man that doesn't INSPIRE me to think about tomorrow. Lately we I've seen enough TIRED old men that ONLY see war in their vision for America while the growing number of DOMESTIC problems we have keep getting swept under the rug. Our economy is sky-diving, healthcare coverage is failing 45-50 million middle class Americans, we're rebuilding other countries and fighting poverty overseas while we're slapping fines on homeless AND withdrawing funding from many of our grant funded programs for those living in poverty HERE. I don't SAY this to be cold - BUT if we're fighting poverty issues HERE - we CREATE jobs for more Americans in the process. That's what GRANTS do. When those grants go away, workforces shrink which means there are less people fighting poverty and all it's symptoms such as unemployment, welfare, education, gangs, teen pregnancies, AIDS/VD, drugs, illegal guns, crime/homicide, prostitution, etc... As we've seen - SOME politicians even want to KEEP prostitution going. This is just me but SOMETIMES I think if we REMOVED the first impression of Democrat or Republican - we'd actually LET ourselves see who each candidate is and what they REALLY have to offer. I think this is a bigtime show-stopper but REALLY the elite upper class runs this country for the elite upper class. Therefore, 45-50 million middle class Americans without any healthcare coverage can continue to be told "just be happy you weren't born in a war zone" while those telling us that convenient truth have to pretend nobody here is born into cockroaches, broken homes, and drive by shooting turfs. And what is their TOP concern? Petro in the middle east disguised as fighting Al Queda in Iraq. When asked Cheney was told that two-thirds of American's polled opposed the war - you know what his reply was? "So!" Now THAT is how a current LEADER sees a Democracy. - Tom F. (Cheney couldn't even pull off hunting in the woods with his debutante buddies. One of the group couldn't tell the difference between Bambi and the next Dan Quayle. God bless em for trying though) |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters  |
So? I'm positive Senator McCain inspires people. Seems like an an honest and brave man to me with a long history of public service. He doesn't inspire you because you don't like Republicans. Being a "uniter" means the same to both parties. Preach what we want to hear and screw the other side. If they don't get on board f*ck 'em. There are people inspired by Mike Huckabee, Jesse Jackson, John Edwards, Ron Paul, Mitt Romney and Hillary too. For example are you "inspired" by Romney? He gives a great speech. WSS |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
I dont think Obama thinks those things at all, and I dont want him held responsible for them being said. But he has some responsibility to explain what he was doing as an active member of that church, no? The "vision statement" of the church is based on black liberation theology as systematized by Dr. James Cone in 1969. Wright's website also says that his chruch operates from the "vantage point of Black liberation theology being its center" and that "Systematized Black liberation theology is 40 years old". I take that to mean that the theology of Dr. Cone is at the center of the vantage point of Wright's church, dont you? What definition other than Cone's should we use to discover what that means? I cant really believe you dont think Obama knew about this, Heck. Wright is on the board of directors of the organization built around Cone's theology (has been since '85) and publicy declares Cone's theology as the vision statement of his church. I dont think I should have to walk you down the path of common sense here. Obama claims to be an active member of the church and a close friend of Wright, and he claims to be ignorant of Wright's vision statement or its meaning. To me, those two things are mutually exclusive for a person of Obama's intelligence. Please help me understand some logical defense of Wright's position, I cant think of one. Or help me understand which of Obama's statements is the less explicit lie. I dont mind the lies, they're just politics; I mind people claiming he isnt lying. I dont mind Wright practicing freedom of speech, I mind the fact that people are trying to treat Wright like his theology isnt disgusting, like it's okay because he does some great things in the community. If that's the case, why does Obama discredit Wright's buddy Farakhan? He's a great community activist; who cares that he's anti-semitic? |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Come on, Tom, be serious. I said that I better understood his positions. Wasnt that his point? to communicate his views? If the people reading or hearing the speech didnt have a better understanding of his views afterwards, then it was a bad speech. You want me to break it down issue by issue? I prefer his economic policy, health care policy, foreign policy; I expect him to be more effective in building bi-partisan consensus, think he is a more unifying candidate, think he will be more effective in balancing the budget. If you want a more specific answer, I'll give it. There are only 3 people running at this point. I dont get to choose from all 200 million adults. He isnt the best in the country, he is the best of the 3. I dont rely on elected leaders for inspiration. I dont mean that as an insult to you, just to explain that I value other attributes more than I value a candidate's ability to inspire me. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Tupa, I just think you're getting a bit carried away with your research project. The reason I don't worry about Cone's theology extending from 40 years ago and arriving verbatim in Obama's ears is because it probably didn't. There's no evidence that Wright preached "black liberation theology" in the exact way that Cone wrote about it. Maybe Obama knows about it separately. Or maybe he had heard about it. It's not that big a deal to me. None of the Wright sermons making the rounds strike me as particularly odd for a church in the black community. And they're not. None of them rise to the level of, "Holy shit! How can you not walk out of that church?" It's not like the man was advocating violence against whites. Essentially, he's forwarding paranoid theories and bitching in between his Biblical lessons. Again, this is pretty routine stuff.
And some of the ones excerpted that aren't making the rounds are fairly thoughtful. I'm pretty confident that it's this part that Obama was attracted to, and learned from the anger. I don't believe he shares it. Again, this is one of those moments in America, like OJ or Jena or whatever, where suddenly white America finds itself stunned to discover how disillusioned black America is. Well, some of us aren't stunned. Some of us have heard all this before, so it's kind of tough to get my dander up about it. So when you're arguing that Obama had to have known, and how can I think he didn't know, neither answer really bothers me. You're trying to get me to care about something that personally I don't really care about. It's clear a lot of voters do care about it, so that's the only part of this that interests me. It also comes down to our respective views on religion. This stuff is very important to you. Your church is very important to you. Might I suggest that Obama's church is also important to him, and he appreciates the man who introduced him to Christ. That man's loony political views are something you can easily separate from the Gospels, but also views that are fairly widely held within the community you're representing, and its probably best to understand them. That said, seems like an odd choice for a church. Maybe it makes a bit more sense when you get how he battled to understand his own identity as a black man raised by white parents and grandparents. In the end, it's just hard for me to take the totality of his candidacy, his platform, his talents, and think that some quack reverend who is entirely irrelevant to his would-be presidency suddenly makes that less candidacy less viable. |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Heck, I kind of agree with what you are saying, but why would he try to cover up that he "knew about it" ? That's what I'm upset over. Not that Wright's views exist. Not that Wright isn't alone in sharing those views. Not that Wright's views have zero legitimacy or even influence when it comes to Obama's campaign or personal beliefs.
Just that he pretended to be oblivious to something that's posted in the vision statement of the church & preacher he's more than 'just associated" with for the last 20+ yrs. Something at the root of the foundation of that specific church. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Okay, fine. So you don't believe him. You think he may be covering his political bases here.
If you were otherwise inclined to vote for him, why would you change your mind over this? Why would you think this rises to the level of "F'ck it! I'm voting for Hillary!" You really think his political triangulation should be a deal-breaker? I sure don't. |
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First Day Draft Selection |
for a political forum, you guys are pretty civil....
quit takin the meds y'all.....these debates normally digress very fast. :lol sorry, and i know. noob should not stick his nose in.... yet: he should have waited those extra 4-8 years before making this run. this country faces many problems for the next president, and he has done nothing to prove he is up to the task. least the others have some idea of the system.... words are just words. i dont judge on what he says, only on what he does. and that goes for everyone.... |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Not a deal breaker. But an ice-breaker.
As in, what else is there? I know why he soft-shoed the truth, as those views aren't going to garner any popularity in this country but from a small group of folks. It just makes me ask, what else is he licking his finger & sticking it in the wind p.s. You can be safely assured I'll never utter the line, "I'm voting for Hillary!"  |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
I think that's an entirely appropriate question for you to be asking of him. In fact, the sooner people start seeing this guy as a politician and not some deity the better off we'll all be.
So in some sense, I'm glad this happened to him now instead of in October. |
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