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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Ha. I'm supposed to reply to every one of your distortions? No, thanks.
I'm also realizing how much time I'm wasting arguing with a crank. And yes, someone who think global warming is a plot devised by Al Gore and climate scientists in order to raise taxes and ruin the world economy is the stuff of cranks. It's the equivalent of someone who believes that the real reason George Bush started the Iraq War is because he wanted to slaughter Muslim civilians. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
And DieHard, you're right. That car has been in development for years.
But as a few people have pointed out in here, the benefits of paying extra money for a car like that, or for certain hybrid models, have never added up. People were buying them for altruistic reasons, but they didn't make economic sense. When gas prices were cheaper, you'd have to drive certain hybrid models something like 37 years to make that money back. That's what the market is changing. Now millions of people are looking to buy more fuel efficient cars because the price of oil has gotten so high. Paying the extra cost for a hybrid, or one day a car like the Clarity, is starting to pay off in the long run. It's no longer something people are doing for altruistic reasons. This is the market responding to high gas prices. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Well said. The market's response is lower price and more hydrogen fueling stations, year by year by year. Like Blu-Ray, right?
Everybody wins, including both the environment and the economy. The oil companies that start moving into alternate fuels will be the successful ones; the companies that focus their dollars on Global Warming distortion campaigns and calls for more drilling will die. As it should be. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
It also makes the least fuel efficient cars - SUVs/light trucks - look less and less appealing to the consumer.
Instead of mandating that cars achieve a certain mileage standard, you can just attach a price to carbon and let the market work. |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
YES!!!!!!!!!!!! EXACTLY!!!!!!!!! The market result is "Everybody wins". Surprise! And we now have Shep celebrating the benefits of creative destruction. What a day.  |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Not the 500,000 that was reported last week:
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — Saudi Arabia plans to increase its oil production by 200,000 barrels a day next month, the kingdom's oil minister told U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon on Sunday, according to Ban's spokesman. ...Ban also said Saudi Arabia understands that the current price of oil, which topped $139 per barrel earlier this month, is not normal, according to the official Saudi Press Agency. "The king believes that the current oil prices are abnormally high, and he is ready to restore prices to their appropriate levels," SPA quoted Ban as telling reporters in Jiddah. |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters  |
Hey we hate the Saudis! Lets boycott gas until they abdicate the throne!! Who's with me? Heck Heck??? WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
What point are you even trying to make anymore?
I'm suggesting it would be better for the United States to be energy independent, or mostly energy independent, and to begin, in earnest, the long shift from an economy powered by mostly fossil fuel based energy to one that is powered, at least in large part, by cleaner sources. The main two reasons for doing this are: 1) environmental and 2) for national security. Part of #2 is not continuing to send so many American dollars to support repressive Middle Eastern governments that fund our enemies, like Saudi Arabia and Iran and Libya, or corrupt governments like Nigeria, or socialist ones like Venezuela. You'd like to make some asinine point about ...I don't know what. That I hate the Saudis and want to boycott their gas until they... huh? You're really out of ideas. Apparently lots of straw men left, though. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
You hate Saudis and I love Kucinich. They ran out of points a few miles back and now they just drop bizarre one-liners.
I'm telling you guys: If you really want to find some joy in the next 8 to 16 years, it should be about transformation. What will the GOP be on the other side? Don't just spit into the wind. |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
And still rather than list them you blah blah blah. Because most of this is apparent. Oil's going to be the energy of the past soon enough. There are more who want what's left. And almost everybody thinks we should get as much of our own as possible. And everybody likes alternative energy. Except the kind that works. Some oppose common sense things just to be assholes. For instance: refusing to accept any kind of conservation OR blocking US oil production and nuclear plants. I say the market will make oiul obsolete. Like firewood cassette tape and Beta. I say your dream of taxing the shit out of energy will hurt people worse than your pie in the sky "benefit." Po' people who need to drive to minimum wage jobs!! I say you've often bitched about the Saudis so great... Let's not take their dirty oil. That's the prodigal Osama's idea. He's the family rebel remember? You seem to think the automakers are just refusing to make magic cars. And taxing the shit out of them will make them see the light. BS says I. The Japanese don't have one in common use. And we've all but given the industry to them. Also your statements seem to indicate that you don't think your contribution through deep sacrifice will help the environment. Even, as you say, we may only have ten years before it's too late and we're all doomed. (Al Gore's estimate is 5) These are pretty much the arguments you've made. So call em straw herrings or red men and blurt out "Huh???" WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Steve, I'll leave it to others to sum up the arguments I've made. Yours are filled with an unhinged rage.
Let me just try to explain one thing to you: If you now pay $150 every month to fill up your tank to go to and from work, and after a carbon tax is instituted that figure goes up to $170 a month, but your income tax rate is lowered an amount that saves you around, say, $240 a year, how does that hurt you? Are you better off? If you do nothing, you haven't lost a dime. If you can lower the amount you spend on gas by altering your behavior, you're better off than you were before. I know you'd like to keep on stamping your feet and talking about how this would CRUSH working people by "taxing the shit out energy", but that's simply because you don't know what you're talking about. And because arguing with straw men is easier than arguing with me. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
"For the Clarity's release in California, Honda said it received 50,000 applications through its Web site but considered only buyers living near hydrogen fuel stations in Torrance, Santa Monica and Irvine."
Looks like you weren't the only one interested, Shep. |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
I havent read the whole thread here, so forgive me if I've missed something in responding to this particular post:
What country is this going to happen in? You've got a whole slew of problem here. First, you've created a government deficit in you example where income taxes are cut more than carbon taxes are raised. Second, you would need a pretty sophisticated change in the tax code to ensure that poor people didnt get hurt by this, considering the fact that they dont have income taxes to cut. A rebate might work, but wouldnt be attached to gas use at all as the variance of gas use among the poor is quite large. Thirdly, it would be extremely difficult to measure how much income tax to cut. Higher gas prices should result in lower consumption (that's the point, right?). Lower consumption results in lower tax receipts, to an extent that would be very difficult to forecast. I suppose the tax rebates could be sent out at the end of each year, but what are the odds we really get those checks regularly? Fourthly (that doesnt sound right), the idea doesnt really work for the average Joe, but it really doesnt work for small business owners and truck drivers. Are truck drivers supposed to buy a Prius? Fifthly, other stuff... I like the Pigou-iness of the idea, but I dont see how it works in reality. We need to seriously reform the tax code before we can hope to really take advantage of "zero cost" or "no-tax increase" carbon taxes. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
I was oversimplifying to make a point. Whether or not it's an exact and even trade is irrelevant, and as you note, not feasible anyway.
But it should be the goal. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Don't tell me you're not up for a serious reform of the tax code, Tupa!
I'm all for it. What's that line Gingrich always uses? "Real change requires real change." |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Another point for McCain. Are you sure you're voting for Obama? Of course I'm for reform, but it would be most effective if it precedes new taxes. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Voting for him? I'm one of his legions of Kool-Aid drinking drones who follow every word of his Gospel. I'd die for the man.
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
\ Heh. Hide in plain sight. WSS |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Yes, misery. (Strokes cat.) It's why we live. Why we're created this big myth in order to ruin the world economy with increased carbon taxes.
Thanks. I'll have this discussion with Tupa in the private section. |
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