I see your point Nav but our cultures are VASTLY different. Personal responsibility and Honor are seen and treated completely different.

The way they handled that and the way the Japanese percieve Justice versus American culture is again vastly different.

I obviously for cultural reasons agree with your basic premise.

Incidentally, the Japanese phrase for subway attack translates to "red herring" in English. The prosecution of a perpetrator of a major terrorist attack is now equivalent to the prosecution of a guy who kills his wife.

Shoko Asahara was prosecuted, convicted, and sent to death row, the same as Tim McVeigh. I would imagine that he had defense counsel. I'm not sure exactly where the evidence is that the Japanese justice system is light years ahead of ours.

Look at how the terms of the debate have shifted--we've now devolved to the point where the justice system is so broken that allegedly we have serial killers and Osama walking down the streets on technicalities, with nary an example to back it up.

Dennis

quote:

Originally posted by Dencyguy:
Incidentally, the Japanese phrase for subway attack translates to "red herring" in English. The prosecution of a perpetrator of a major terrorist attack is now equivalent to the prosecution of a guy who kills his wife.

Shoko Asahara was prosecuted, convicted, and sent to death row, the same as Tim McVeigh. I would imagine that he had defense counsel. I'm not sure exactly where the evidence is that the Japanese justice system is light years ahead of ours.

Look at how the terms of the debate have shifted--we've now devolved to the point where the justice system is so broken that allegedly we have serial killers and Osama walking down the streets on technicalities, with nary an example to back it up.

Dennis

Dennis, it is easy. The difference is and was that the Japanese court system did not play around. Shoko Asahara was prosocuted and sent to jail. No long drawn court case, no 50 appeals no sitting on death row for 20 years. He was guilty, the police did not play, there was no oh my but what about Shoko Asahara rights. He gave those up. Tim McVeigh, it took us way to long to convict and get rid of that POS.

The terms of the debate have not shifted, we just looked at a society that does not coddle criminals. You don't hear of evidence being thown out there or criminals getting off for BS reasons. Police are allowed to do their job and the prison is actually a prison. No cable tv, no gym, just a bed and a radio. As it should be. The fact is, they have not crumbled or had a massive number of innocent people arrested so the excuse that we have to let 10 criminals go free to protect one innocent person from being wrongly convicted is BS.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
I see your point Nav but our cultures are VASTLY different. Personal responsibility and Honor are seen and treated completely different.

The way they handled that and the way the Japanese percieve Justice versus American culture is again vastly different.

I obviously for cultural reasons agree with your basic premise.

It is different but in some ways we are not that far apart, there are still a lot of honest hard working folks out there that still beleive that a man is only as good as his word and place value on an honest days work. I think the press, politicians and the need to feel good about themselves liberal minority have flooded the cities with excuses as to why it is not their fault and that they are owed. It corrupts what this country was founded on.

quote:

Originally posted by NAVDAWG:
Dennis, it is easy. The difference is and was that the Japanese court system did not play around. Shoko Asahara was prosocuted and sent to jail. No long drawn court case, no 50 appeals no sitting on death row for 20 years. He was guilty, the police did not play, there was no oh my but what about Shoko Asahara rights. He gave those up. Tim McVeigh, it took us way to long to convict and get rid of that POS.

The terms of the debate have not shifted, we just looked at a society that does not coddle criminals. You don't hear of evidence being thown out there or criminals getting off for BS reasons. Police are allowed to do their job and the prison is actually a prison. No cable tv, no gym, just a bed and a radio. As it should be. The fact is, they have not crumbled or had a massive number of innocent people arrested so the excuse that we have to let 10 criminals go free to protect one innocent person from being wrongly convicted is BS.

The Tokyo subway attack took place a month before Oklahoma City. The streamlined, no-nonsense process in Japan ended with Asahara sentenced to death in 2004, a month shy of nine years after the attacks. That's pretty long and drawn out.

I absolutely stand by the red herring comment. This started as a debate about rules of evidence, and then took a turn into left field with remarks about serial killers and terrorists, and I still can't think of a single instance when a serial killer or convicted terrorist was freed by an American court on a technicality. Have there been criminals who have gotten away with crimes on technicalities? Absolutely, and that shouldn't happen.

Dennis

If the Japanese arrest you, the conviction rate is around 90 percent.

quote:

Originally posted by Dencyguy:

quote:

Originally posted by NAVDAWG:
Dennis, it is easy. The difference is and was that the Japanese court system did not play around. Shoko Asahara was prosocuted and sent to jail. No long drawn court case, no 50 appeals no sitting on death row for 20 years. He was guilty, the police did not play, there was no oh my but what about Shoko Asahara rights. He gave those up. Tim McVeigh, it took us way to long to convict and get rid of that POS.

The terms of the debate have not shifted, we just looked at a society that does not coddle criminals. You don't hear of evidence being thown out there or criminals getting off for BS reasons. Police are allowed to do their job and the prison is actually a prison. No cable tv, no gym, just a bed and a radio. As it should be. The fact is, they have not crumbled or had a massive number of innocent people arrested so the excuse that we have to let 10 criminals go free to protect one innocent person from being wrongly convicted is BS.

The Tokyo subway attack took place a month before Oklahoma City. The streamlined, no-nonsense process in Japan ended with Asahara sentenced to death in 2004, a month shy of nine years after the attacks. That's pretty long and drawn out.

I absolutely stand by the red herring comment. This started as a debate about rules of evidence, and then took a turn into left field with remarks about serial killers and terrorists, and I still can't think of a single instance when a serial killer or convicted terrorist was freed by an American court on a technicality. Have there been criminals who have gotten away with crimes on technicalities? Absolutely, and that shouldn't happen.

Dennis

I got some cement to pour but lets take a look. It happened on March 95. 10 people were accused of participating in the crime. Those that let out the gas got death those that drove the get away got life.

I like this part.. "In May 1995, after the sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway, American scholars James R. Lewis and J. Gordon Melton flew to Japan to hold a pair of press conferences in which they announced that the chief suspect in the murders, religious group Aum Shinrikyo, couldn't have produced the sarin that the attacks had been committed with. They had determined this, Lewis said, from photos and documents provided by the group." Got to stick our nose in.

But "However, the Japanese police had already discovered at Aum's main compound back in March a sophisticated chemical weapons laboratory that was capable of producing thousands of kilograms a year of the poison.[1] Later investigation showed that Aum not only created the sarin used in the subway attacks, but had committed previous chemical and biological weapons attacks, including a previous attack with sarin that had killed seven and injured 144."

It did not take them long to round them all up after it happened. They had confession from group members days after it happened if I remember correctly.

"Shortly after the attack, Aum lost its status as a religious organization, and many of its assets were seized.' AS it should be.

"About twenty of Aum's members, including its founder Asahara, are either standing trial or have already been convicted for crimes related to the attack. As of July 2004, eight Aum members have received death sentences for their roles in the attack." Asahara was sentensed to death in 2004 and yes he had a couple appeals that ended in Sept 06 with the verdict intact. I was wrong in the fact that they have not hanged him yet. I thought they did. AS of 2006 12 cult members have been sentenced to death, but none of the sentences have yet been carried out.

Tim McVeigh was apr 95, he was excuited in 2001, Terry Nicholes was also arrested and got a life sentense. Michael Fortier a third member got only 12 years for testifing. "the government never openly investigated anyone else in conjunction with the bombing. Though the defense teams in both McVeigh's and Nichols trials tried to suggest that others were involved," Sounds like Japan was a litle more effective at getting them all.

Last Friday, New York City police made their first arrest to date in the death of 55-year-old Frank DeSena, who was shot and killed during the armed robbery of an underground NYC poker club on November 2. The suspect, 35-year-old William Delvalle, was arrested on East 21st Street, just seven blocks away from the building that housed the underground club where the crime took place.

Police charged Delvalle with second degree murder and robbery, though he was not believed to have been the gunman. Since his arrest, Delvalle was being held at the Manhattan Detention Complex. According to a report on the New York Post's website, Delvalle has since been released from jail because prosecutors in the case failed to secure an indictment within the allotted time. (2007)

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- A mentally challenged man who stabbed and killed his neighbor has been released from jail after a technicality kept him from being committed to a mental institution. (2006)

Five times last year, porn actor and registered sex offender Kenneth Hoyt allegedly exposed himself and started masturbating on Manhattan subways - once in front of two 16-year-old girls.
But the whole bundle of misdemeanor charges - including seven counts of public lewdness, one count of indecent exposure and two counts of endangering the welfare of a child - were dismissed by a criminal court judge last week.
The reason? Prosecutors with the Manhattan District Attorney's Office missed the legal deadline for bringing the Hell's Kitchen perv to trial in a timely manner - by only four days (2007)

Good to have all these people back on the street.

I call this getting off. Coral Eugene Watts would eventually lead police to 3 bodies and confess to 13 murders. Although he was sentenced to 60 years, an old Texas law will require Watts to be released back into society after serving only 24 of those years. This unjust law was abolished in 1995, but cannot be made retroactive. His release date was scheduled for December of 2005.

A real ladies man.........