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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
"After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts, and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."
That's retired two-star General Anthony Taguba today. Just wanted to throw that out there. Now go ahead and prove how much of a man you are because you have no problem with the United States of America torturing people suspected of terrorism, or attacks on our troops, whether or not they are guilty of anything, because we're at war, and that war lasts forever, so the governments power to detain and torture anyone they like without presenting charges or bringing anyone to trial is forever, too. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
And if you still think these policies are a good idea, watch this video, too:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/20...how-torture-kil.html "...First, some U.S. flag rank officers maintain that the first and second identifiable causes of US combats deaths in Iraq as judged by their effectiveness in recruiting insurgent fighters into combat are, respectively, the symbols of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo." |
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Hall of Famer |
I definately think they should be held accountable. i doubt it will happen because by proxy a lot of people would feel responsible and they definately do not want to accept responsibility.
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Hall of Famer |
That most ridiculous cliche,
"Those that don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it" McCain and those who served in viet nam and our views at that wars end were that America was above that kind of torture and mistreatment of fellow human beings and was despicable and would never be the kind of country that would stoop to that level. Obviously 9-11 did change the way we looked things but where and when did we decide that we could commit the acts we have in the name of democracy? KSM,Bin laden and the like should be tried and held to account for there actions and punished to the full extent that our laws allow. Having said that,in the heat of the moment when our troops are on the line a "jack bauer" approach to people with knowledge or information should get the "special treatment" and rightfully so but gitmo and the things this administration have done are wrong and we as a society should be better than that. Here we are 7 years removed from 9-11 and we are not any more safe and terror around the world is on the rise,and our reputation with other countries is at an all time low. 9-12-01 should have been our greatest hour. We held all the chips and support and Bush blew it worse than DA in Cincinatti,its a shame and we need to reset our policys and actions and get back to the things that made this country great. |
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Hall of Famer |
Right. No attacks on the US since 9-11-01. How many attacks before that genius? African Embassies? USS Cole? First WTC attack? What you smokin? |
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Hall of Famer |
As far as torture goes, I don't agree with actual torture. I also understand what these troops are going through. Your dealing with an enemy who cuts off peoples head with a butcher knife while the subject is conscious. This changes a mindset. Get realistic.
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AFC North Player of the Month |
Ok first, how quickly some forget.
"The tape was of captured US army captain, Michael Durant, a Black Hawk pilot. It showed him severely beaten. The tape, although made for propaganda purposes, was broadcast throughout the day in the US. America's objective journalists had plastered the airwaves with video of a beaten US soldier, provided by the captors, with no mention that this filming might violate the Geneva Convention's terms banning the use of prisoners for propaganda purposes" |
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AFC North Player of the Month |
We are not safer, are you high or did you forget about all the other attacks against service members, or does that just not matter. In the 80s Reagan stepped up and kick some butt and the terror against us stopped. Clinton gets in office and we are back to terrorist attacks on American. Bush steps up but oh my he is so rough, I see why California is changing it marrage policy. Hey maybe you can get your votes in now for the next target once Obama gets elected.
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Hall of Famer |
come on Nav its not that simple. periods of inactivity due to pressure dont change the fact that as soon as the pressure is let off they will start again.
We can not pursue them into nuclear countries that are friendly (pakistan). Our oil policies for our prescence and meddling in the middle east are not going away. The jewish special interest hold a powerful lobbying position in supporting Israel no matter what. Those factors are what will keep the REASONS for CRIMINAL behavior toward or country. To state that we have not been attacked since 9-11 as definitive causation of being "safer" is simple and juvenile. Our own tim mcviegh which in essence did the EXACT same thing as the criminals from Saudi did was prosecuted criminally. We are not safer, in fact from a military standpoint of an over deployed and stretched military we are less ready to react (Katrina/delayed national gaurd prescence due to Iraq and afghanistan deployments) which means we are not as safe. These guys basically are doing what the Italian mob did by "going to ground" and waiting out the heat. It is illogical for them to attempt a crime against us when we are actively looking, they are just biding their time and laughing at out Iraq deployment. |
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AFC North Player of the Month |
Exactly so why should we lay off the presure. Clinton did that and we have dead US service members to show for it. Also correct on the Jewish lobbying and such, why is cuba still off limits. But that can be said of other groups to. We cannot drill for oil here because some tree hugger lobbys against it. The reason for criminal behavior towards us is simple. The royal families there need someone to direct the people hate towards less they realize that it is their own people that are keeping them down. Tim mcviegh is dead, he should have been shot sooner. The military is not stretched that thin. Come on, most of the troops are not complaining it is the media and liberals that are crying about it. More ships are in port then deployed. Park a carrier off someones coast, heck park two and we can level anyone over there with minimal losses. As for Katrina, maybe is someone would have not delayed, local and state officials it would not have taken so long. Plus maybe if they would have spent some money on repairing the walls that held the water back from a city below sea level. can we just say dumb. Thus keep the heat on, keep them underground. |
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Hall of Famer |
Sorry Sev, but since your not an American Veteran, i.e., you never served in the U.S. Armed Forces, your opinion means SHIT to me. You chose to serve with South Korea. So keep out of the U.S. Military aspect of the argument. |
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Hall of Famer |
I served in the army,so what.
Reagan kicked butt? They bombed the marines in lebanon and we left and did nothing. Reagan and Iran/Contra? Wtc attack of 93,Clinton was in office 37 days before that happened. Look you want to go attack for attack and who was in charge during them fine,but its a deflection from the conversation at hand. |
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Hall of Famer |
easy Diehard no one is impinging your service. I dont agree with your oversimplified argument. Military readiness and reaction opinions are not the sole discretion of "U.S. Vets".
There is a part of me that thinks an aggressive approach toward keeping the pressure on criminal terrorist is the correct sort of action. I suppose its always the details of exactly how that should be approached. Me I would let the controls off of the Cia and let them use the military as support. That is just an opinion, I know that military command does not in any way like to take orders from civilian intelligence and vice versa. So that approach unless forced by an administration is probably not feasable. Nav I do agree that the Katrina response problems started locally and spread but it certainly did not help that our rescources were deployed heavily elsewhere. I think a we are overstretched and deployments back into the same region are in the 5th.6th plus phases. As an opinion I think that is a pretty heavy burden. Diehard try to stay objective, you dont have to agree with me I would prefer you to stay civil as much as you can. Nav and I clearly do not agree on a few issues but we can keep it civil. |
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AFC North Player of the Month |
Ok Sev lets start at your last point. The Amry has finally had to pull some extended tours over there in the last couple of years. The Navy has been doing it for 20 plus years. When I joined the big issue was the gulf and we were escorting ships and looking for mines. The Navy has pulled more double CV operations there and has had more of a presence then any other service. So now that the Army and National Guard have to deploy is not the end of the world, they are just getting to enjoy what we are use to.
On troop levels, if we were out of Iraq the politicians would draw us down and there still would not be enough for a major event like katrina. Look after the cold war. Once it was over the military cut people until they hurt readiness. Then they built back up and then cut again. It is the cycle. The only way to minimize a natural disaster is to do everything you can to prevent damage. Japan is an earthquake waiting to happen, then spend lots of money on prepairing people and designing buildings to be flexable to withstand the schocks. We need to do the same, how many damn and bridges are just old. Disasters waiting to happen. All for the CIA part. I have no problem with them taking terrorist leaders out of the picture. Problem is that if they do then the press nails them for that, if we send in the military then we are knocked for that, do nothing and 9/11 all over again. Like it or not the level of destruction that terrorists are capable of has grown. We are not just talking about hijacking a jet or bombing a building. When they attack the USS Cole that was a turning point in my opinion. 9/11 was next and I don't want to give them the chance to out do that. Personally I have no problem with giving the CIA and such the power to stop these people. Heck they want to tap my phone be my guest, I have nothing to hide. I am tired of protecting criminals and using the excuse of defending honest people rights to do it. Personally I think we have gotten to touchy feely as a nation. |
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AFC North Player of the Month |
It has to do with policy. Sorry but both Carter and Clinton were weak and let terrorist act with fear of reprisal. No administration has been perfect but I am tired to turning the other cheek and getting slapped for it. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Nav, maybe I'm tired... but didn't 9/11 happen under Bush, not Clinton? Reading your posts, you'd think otherwise.
And the Bush administration was passed a report all about Bin Laden trying to attack using passenger planes... but he had a Texas sized boner for Sadaam Hussein and Iraq. But you insist on saying that was Clinton, which I don't understand. And then Bush used 9/11... To attack Iraq? He even left Afghanistan with the job unfinished to fight... Iraq? Come on, man. It is what it is and that history is written. Bush can't blame the oil crisis on Dems and you can't blame 9/11 on Clinton. Sorry, pal. Bush did this. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Funny how this brand of Republicanism simultaneously believes that government is inept, full or power-hungry liars who can't do anything right, that it wastes all sorts of money and you can't trust it, but the one thing you can trust them with is spying on you. Also, criminals don't need to have rights because we've already decided that they're guilty. And the 4th amendment of the US Constitution is tiresome, not to mention touchy-feely, and we'd happily do away with it. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the base of today's (moribund) Republican Party. |
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AFC North Player of the Month |
Got to love a liberal. One unless you cannot read, you should realize that I beleive that Govt is inept long before today. I also don't beleive that more of it is better and that it can spend my money better then I can, I also do not beleive that just because you are alive that give right to have everything, it is called work. But I got it you two are the party of hand outs. Here is a concept. If you are caught killing someone you are guilty. I don't care what crazy defence they come up with. I also have no use for people on death row to half their life. The system has grown far beyond what the intent was. It was to protect the innoncent not those caught red handed in a crime. |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters  |
Maybe that's why they're called "crminals." Bust seriously, try to asnwer this honestly. Which do you prefer? An "illegal" search of a suspected violent criminals home that gets him locked up or a few more crimes against really innocent people? Your choice. WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Are you suggesting that we should allow evidence obtained by government officials illegally to be used in a court of law?
And "Illegal" isn't something you use in quotation marks. If evidence is obtained illegally -- they beat it out of him, they broke into his house and searched without a warrant or probable cause, whatever -- that can't be used in a court of law. This isn't very controversial stuff. It'd happen in any court room in America. That whole 4th Amendment thing isn't just there to protect "criminals." It's also there to protect the law-abiding. As for your question, that's a nice example of the logical fallacy of the false dilemma, so I'm glad to see you're branching out from ad hominem and straw man. |
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