quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
read closely DD and look up some history, we did not cause the wars we supported different factions within the region.

Wow you're brilliant, really. Who do you think supported the Vietcong? Talk about proxy wars. And we supplied the Afghans through Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Israel because we wanted the Russians to go out of thier fooking minds like we did.

Foregin Policy always seems to bite us in the ass. But for us to sit on the sidelines while NOBODY does anything is fooking dumb.

Don't want us to get involved? Fine. Lets stop feeding 3/4 of the world while were at it.

quote:

Originally posted by rich4eagle:
My good friend who served in Viet Nam witnessed Cong being thrown out of helicopters..by US soldiers..as bad as Viet Nam was this is nearly an order of magnitude worse............because the nation invaded was defenseless and remains defenseless

"I know a guy, who knew a guy, who knows this guy....
Busted by Historians

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One of the stories told and retold was that of prisoners pushed out of helicopters in order to scare others into talking. It is, of course, possible that some American interrogators engaged in this criminal practice, though not a single instance has been confirmed. We do know of at least one case where such an occurrence was staged through the use of a dead body. An investigation by the CID identified the soldier who had taken the photograph; it also identified a second soldier who acquired the picture, made up the story of the interrogation and mailed it and the photograph to his girlfriend. She in turn gave them to her brother, who informed the Chicago Sun-Times. On 29-30 November 1969 the picture and the story appeared in the Chicago Sun-Times and the Washington Post and generated wide media interest. A lengthy investigation by the CID, which began on 8 January 1970, established that a dead NVA soldier had been picked up on 15 February 1969 after an operation in Cia Dinh province (III CIZ) and adduced other details of how the picture had been posed. The commander of the helicopter in question was reprimanded; the two crew members who had pushed the body out of the aircraft had since been discharged and therefore were beyond the Army's disciplinary jurisdiction.

Sev, OK lets leave. Lets close our borders to all Middle Eastern refugees as we do not want to get involved and let them sort it out. Do you really think they will all join hands and go to work rebuilding their nations. All would be wonderful and Ali would smile upon his peaceful nations. All this would happen if we just left. Right.

And the attacks on innocent Israeli's will stop, and ice cream cones will sprout from bare ground all across the Sinai Desert, the West Bank, and Israel ...

all we have to do is just leave ! (and vote for a Dem)

"doi"

Nav come on I am not talking about complete disengagement. We are not in the cold war era anymore fighting a proxy war to stop a possible domino effect of communism.

I dont believe for a second that the theocracies are willingly going to give up their powers. I dont believe that religous organizations that hold sway over the millions of under educated populations world wide are going to go away.

All I am advocating is engaging the region in a more practical way using financial leverage fairly. We cant win over anyone with the current sledge hammer approach. We dont belong in the region and would not be there unless they had oil.

History has consistently shown in the region that military occupations and backing of the tribal factions change like the wind. I dont want our soldiers over there in the middle of hostile populaces from every country. We cant use the Roman solution of command and control/slaughter. The only thing we have left is financial leverage. We are shutting out regional powers and expect them to help stabilize when its not in their interest to. We cant stabilize Iraq with every regional population whipped up by religous fervor against us.

Steve I dont agree with you. PR is so important to Al queda that they have a division specifically to do just that. Al jazeera/internet is so important to their survival that they would be a small band of criminals without it. Perception is everything especially in closed societies in the middle east. Pr can be used for us instead of against us by changing HOW not IF we interact within the region. Like a comedian its all about delivery of a message and in business how you use leverage to gain allies or make enemies.

Again OBL is not necessarily interested in power otherwise like his hyper rich family he would have stayed in Saudi instead of running around in Pakistan and the mountains. He is seen as a freedom fighter by his people who gave up the material world for his belief in foreign intervention that is taking away the wealth of his people, he has also vented toward Saudi leadership but that backfired into a pr disaster for him. He really is not that far off, we do support the royal family who basically keep all of the wealth for themselves and our corps do profit from thier natural rescources and his people really are poor. OBL stand up and punches back at what is seen as the international bully coming in and plundering their natural rescources.

Factually we are and have been sort of. We do prop up the power structure in the those countries even though they are not democratic or fair. women are considered property in Kuwait and most of the middle east. They do have princes and kings and harems and whip people publically, punish women who are raped because it is their fault for enticing men to lose control.

Yes DD I know who supported the Vietcong i have been to Hanoi and from Asia. That was again since you are a History major Cold war era foreign intervention policy to counteract communist proliferation. We did it mainly thru military support and intervention. That is not applicable in the middle east. Again even in that country a larger percentage of the population actually supported the socialist movement rather than our democratic movement. That is not applicable foreign policy in Iraq was not even a country 100 years ago. Iraq was a british invention forced upon a tribal region made up of many different factions.

In a region known historically for its bartering and negotiating societies they have never HISTORICALLY responded well from military intervention. Remember the crusades where these fractured tribal/religous cultures all coalesced into unified fronts against the "infidels"? Since you are a history major than you know why the British pulled out from the region of their own colonial expansion into the area. They learned they could not deal with all of the different factions uniting against them. Since the different factions have been constantly changing who is in control of different regions backing one over another has always "bit" every other party in the ass. The only constant is the third party countries who were willing to deal with all and any sides. I am sure you have studied middle east geopolitical/military history for the last 500 years. All I am advocating is a change in how and who we deal with in the area and see the people as people not terrorist or enemies because techinically WE dont belong there and if it was not for oil we would not be.

you are right al jazeera makes its bread and butter currently by whipping up the region. That is a business decision like our media based upon their viewers. We cant change that overnight by any measure but we can undercut them by changing our tactics and how we approach the leaderships of regional power players who hold sway over al jazeera. I dont like Irans theocracy but we need to engage them and make a deal basically. Otherwise what we are trying to do in Iraq will never work and they will undermine every effort we make there costing american money and lives.

As the saying goes "when in rome?" you have to do what is roman and deal with roman power players. well we are in persia's back yard..

quote:

to engage them and make a deal basically. Otherwise what we are trying to do in Iraq will never work and they will undermine every effort we make there costing american money and lives.

But the Middle ground has not worked and it will not. It is a catch 22, if we leave they will kill each other as people broke for power in the name of religion. They same people that we condeming us for being there now will condemn us for not stopping the blood shed. So which is it. We cannot just park troops there and tell them to hang tight, last time we did that Carter got people killed.

The only people that can stop this are the ones that live there. We either get involed all the way or not at all. I can live with it either way. But I do not want 20 more years of telling guys to sit there with unloaded weapons and not to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by calfoxwc:
And the attacks on innocent Israeli's will stop, and ice cream cones will sprout from bare ground all across the Sinai Desert, the West Bank, and Israel ...

all we have to do is just leave ! (and vote for a Dem)

"doi"

It will be so wonderful. Cann't you just see it, the bombers givng up and chasing after the ice cream truck.

Nav that is not correct, has Iran/saudi/egypt/syria/turkey etc killed themselves in an all out war? No will there be more violence in the future because of pro western syria vs pro iran syria yes.

I am no advocating leaving I am advocating engaging the Iranians specifically. I am advocating sharing economic oil development contracts to iran and Saudi and letting iran go nuclear because we cant stop them anyways. With Iran controlling the shia and the Saudi's controlling the sunnis with a weak oil profit sharing federal government in Iraq each faction can have their own provinsional setups. We cant make a unified iraq when the people dont see themselves as that. Self determination as a unified country is something they dont want.

This is only a catch 22 with Bush like simplicity is applied toward the middle east. You can not expect regional help without engaging the region in the first place. They will only cause problems because we have labeled them the "enemy" and evil. This in essence not a military war but an economic control and influence disagreement. Our military won the "actual war", this occupation that has economic players is what we are losing. This is what you get when we are led by and complete failure of a businessman in Bush.

steve what in the world are you talking about? how does a atrocious crime against that individual effect political tactical engagements?

Obviously what we are doing is not effective and we need to adjust our current model. That is what any failing business does in the face of adversity. Every time a ceo is replaced the new one comes in and changes gears for a turn around. That is obviously what we need. I dont understand your subject change.

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Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
letting iran go nuclear because we cant stop them anyways.

You have got to be kidding me, right? The same Iran that calls for the destruction of Israel? Can't stop them, huh? Ask Syria about their Nuke plant and the help they received from N Korea. Can't stop them anyway? What is with the pussification of America?

Listen man, you have a lot of ideas that seem good on paper, but have absolutely no real world application. Share the oil with Iran? First off they are stealing the oil everyday. Second of all, they sit on a pretty nice path of oil and they still live in poverty. Why? Because they spend there money on Nukes.

And you want to give them more revenue to speed up that process?

Wow. You're full of kumbaya.

The iranian theocracy and moderate suppression is obviously something you know very little about. Their economy is in shambles and they have a very large population that is largely unhappy with their economy. Syria/Iran are two vastly different population and land mass size.

We could not stop pakistan or India who are nuclear. What makes you think we can stop Iran? North Korea actually detonated something atomic/nuclear and they dont have no where near the financial capability of Iran.

The fact is we cant stop Iran from going nuclear and we need them to stabilize iraq. The sooner you and anyone else come to that determination you who never served can help those who are serving come back home. It is easy to call it "pussification" when you have never served in the military. the "real"world as you call it is complex and is based off of material/economic principles and conflicts. The "real world" is one that deals need to be made with countries we dont necessarily like or agree with how they treat their people LIKE SAUDI ARABIA/KUWAIT/UAE. what is the difference if Iran is part of that group as long as our kids stop getting killed for oil control?

My main concern is to stop getting our kids killed and get them home, not if Iran sees us as "pussies". I want oil prices to stabilize so we have enough time to find another way to function. The real world is one which you have not traveled in the area or served as a soldier, you probably dont have any kids so your perspective is limited from your lack of experience.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
The iranian theocracy and moderate suppression is obviously something you know very little about. Their economy is in shambles and they have a very large population that is largely unhappy with their economy. Syria/Iran are two vastly different population and land mass size.

.

First of all I know all about the underlying "moderates." Fact is I have been hearing about this "underlying" moderate class for 35 years. They exist, but they are underlying for a reason, and they will stay that way because I - unlike you- understand the culture of the Persians, and the ME in general. Largely unhappy with the economy? No shit sherlock, it has been that way for 35 years.

You do not understand Iran I can tell. You have this condescending way of trying to get your point across so people will think you know more, but you do not.

When is the last time you read of an uprising in Iran? Why do you think the cleric and Ayatollah's put Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in as President? Because he is moderate?

Dude spare me the lesson on Iran. I don't have time to school you and you need to read to understand anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
I will dig it up, that was sent to me from a friend of mine working in Iraq. I will find it

I am still waiting for the link to the Pulitzer Nomination.

I am just curious Sev - where did (do) you go to college? What year are you in? How old are you?