quote:

Originally posted by DieHardBrownsFan:
I never actually witnessed this myself, but my brother told me when he did his tour in Vietnam (which was several years before I went at the end of the war) the South Korean Marines who were stationed there would take prisoners up in helicopters, about 100 feet, question them, etc. If they didn't get the answer they wanted they took a dive. This prisoner at least was allowed to have his son visit. This photographer was allowed to take the picture. Get my point?

My good friend who served in Viet Nam witnessed Cong being thrown out of helicopters..by US soldiers..as bad as Viet Nam was this is nearly an order of magnitude worse............because the nation invaded was defenseless and remains defenseless

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
Yes I get the point, I am not the summary of other soldiers or their actions. No one culture is innocent in any way nor would I ever state that. In fact my other nationality is a lot more severe than the US. I choose to live here for a lot of reasons and one of them is what I percieve is better here than there. Diehard When you were in Nam you have seen things like I have in other countries that no civilian ever sees or ever wants to.

You know how barbaric the world can be and what a bastion of hope this country is in comparison. You and I may not see eye to eye on a lot of things but one thing we both probably have in common is the love for this country and what it stands for. That may be expressed differently but it is none the less there.

My bleeding heart? yes my heart has softened considerably since i have had children. Yes my perspective and what i do has changed dramatically. Yes it hurts me as a father to see his pain and especially his child. I dont know any other info than what I posted, however it was the message that i personally felt from the picture. So yes It hurts me to see photos like this because of other personal experiences I had when I was serving. It is now different for me since having and raising children. You could say I had an armor of a lack of empathy or true understanding when I was young so things bothered me but not in the same way they do now.

Someone that I know that works currently in Iraq for a private organization sometimes sends me things because he needs to share the load. We talk and sometimes it gets to both of us. I have far worse of pics of children hurt and killed from our offensives and internal Iraqi combat. I wont share them because they are too graphic and honestly they make me cry. I dont know why I keep them, but sometimes I look at them to remind myself of what is happening to my North korean cousins and what is happening to innocent civilians caught up in our policy/economic war. So yes I now have a bleeding heart and I can thank my children for changing me.

Great post ............nuff said

Sev,

One point that is being missed, they have the power to stop all of this. Sorry but while I feel sorry for the kid, his father and such are the one that have put themselves in this situation.

Also is it not funny that OPEC nations gave less to the national food bank then anyone else. Even starving countries gave more. The sum given by the UAE was like the profts gained in an hours and 1/2 worth of oil production.

Funny how the same people who will not feed the hungry are the same people who are causing this mans plight; But of course blame it on Bush.

We have the power to stop all of this......we invaded a defenseless nation without cause and they are fighting back

That summarizes Iraq

Nav, the fact that we invaded in the first place is why we are responsible. Those other OPEC nations did not invade we did.

Bush is responsible because he is president and his cabinet had this agenda before he even got into office. That is well publicized and is proven.

You are trying to change to a different subject that is not applicable. This was a civilian round up which we still do without proof or cause except some criminal fires off a mortar within a block of two of these civilians and runs.

We own this problem we created. This picture was nominated because of the angst is stirs and the situation WE put this Iraqi and his child in. Bush is responsible period, whether you like it or not thats what comes with the job description of Commander in Chief. He made the decision and now is hiding all pics of dead and wounded soldiers, He has almost made illegal anyone taking pictures of coffins or wounded and maimed soldiers or Iraqi citizens. He is hiding the real casulty figure and no one ever mentions the 50,000+ wounded 25,000 catastrophic injuries, the 650,000+ deaths in Iraq.

You want to tell everyone here that is non military about depleted uranium and their effects on the battlefield and on soldiers and their offspring? How about the fact that "casulties numbers" dont include anyone that dies on the way to the hospital or at a hospital in iraq or germany?

We own this problem, We caused this problem due to lack of leadership and planning. This did not have to go this route, Bush did use the angry fearful envirement after 9-11 to create police powers and invade iraq and an dictator like powers in the white house. Those iraqi children are our problem now whether we like it or not.

quote:

Originally posted by rich4eagle:
They are the Iraqi civilians.......Yep Iraqi freedom fighters should not be rounded and treated like animals by an invading nation of ruthless imperialists.......they should be honored for defending the homeland

You mean the freedom fighters that blow up civilians with car bombs? The freedom fighters that sabotage the civil works projects? The freedom fighters who bomb and kill civilians in markets and gatherings? Freedom fighters who infiltrate police academies and blow up 40-50 brave Iraqi's who know the threat? Those freedom fighters?

Yeah credibility and common sense are not your strong points I see. Or English for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
Bush is responsible because he is president and his cabinet had this agenda before he even got into office. That is well publicized and is proven.

Sure, but you think it is perfectly fine for Iraqi's to be slaughtered by foreign insurgents so that they can gain the power? Bush is to blame. Fine. Tell me something we don't know motherfooker.

All your whining and crying and not one solution. Leave and let the genocide commence? That's real smart.

And again, you have no idea what this guy in the photo did, you have no idea how the boy got there, you have no idea why the hood was on this guy.

You're not in country - you're not there so your criticism is worthless. All this crying about human rights because a guy has a bag over his head and his little boy is in his arms.

What did the guy do to get there? You don't know.

Civilian? How the fook do you know???

Sev,

I have to disagree, OPEC is to blame. For all that money they treat their people like dirt and to deflect their attention from them they make us out to be the bad guy. I don't remember any Americans making terrorist atacks in the Iraq. They can end this but they choose greed and corruption over what is right for their people. Place the blame where it should be.

quote:

they should be honored for defending the homeland

By killing their own? I don't agree. DieHard makes a good point. Regardless of the father's innocence or guilt at least he as been allowed to hold and comfort his child while being detained. That alone demonstrates a level of compassion and humanity that our enemies would never afford to us.

Great photo. I just interpret it as the glass being half-full versus half-empty.

DD that pic was again a pulitzer nomination for civilian detainment, did you get it this time. DD for all your bluster about whining and crying have you ever served? for some reason I dont think so otherwise you would not be so cavalier about the war and the violence/human rights. Do you have any children DD?

As for my personal solution you have obviously not read those posts as to my personal solutions to the problem. My personal theories mean diddly squat but just for you.
1. Make Iran our semi exclusive Southern oil developmental partners in Iraq.
2. Make Turkey/Saudi Arabia our other semi exclusive oil developmental partners in Northern Iraq obviously including the autonomous kurds.
3. Let China/Russia/France have partial oil distribution rights
4. More than just state a palestinion independent state actually contribute money toward infrastructure by granting tariff free exports to the us and grant seed money for manufacturing in their territories for a 10 year period. MOney talks.
5. Support temporarily and lift all sanctions and UN movements on Iran and help them with their Nuclear ambitions temporarily.
6. Set up seperate provinsional districts for the kurds/shia/sunni areas that have a weak oil profit sharing central federal government

These financial and political partnerships will get each countries vested interest for a stable Iraq
With our current opposing forces having true vested interest the money funding the Shia extremist would dry up and the material support.
We need more troops on the ground from the regional players to temporarily boost security and services for the iraqi citizens. With Russian/french/Chinese along with British help and some regional including Iran we could definately do it.

We need to win the pr war and that of course starts with the palestinion problem. We dont need to abandon israel more like embrace Palestinion in a real way.
Iran is the key, The conservatives have a tenous hold on power and their economy is the key. Without war mongering their populace will focus on their poor economy which will move more moderates into control.

We need help, obviously Iraq is the second largest oil reserve in the world. We and the Iraqi people need to leverage it to buy stability. That is not happening right now because we have the exclusive developmental and distribution contracts. That does not help us leave but bog us down. That only helps the big 5 oil companies that are british and american who have been locked out of iraq since the 70's.

Iran is going to go nuclear without UN permission just like Pakistan and India did. We need to face that reality and stop antagonizing the situation which leads them to fund activities in Iraq against us. Bush and his stupid Axis of Evil crap and his Neocon advisors were obviously wrong. Right for the war profiteering/oil industries wrong for our country. In a global economy we need to embrace and use diplomacy and financial leverage/incentive to create stability in the middle east. This go it alone military occupation is stupid. We cant stabilize a land occupation in the middle of multiple hostile enemy countries. We need to get them to work with us not antagonize and talk about obliteration and evil. There is a reason that Bush ran every business into the ground he ever ran. he does not understand leverage and business alliances even with people who run counter to your personal liking. His bluster and cowboy approach obviously is ineffective.

I do agree with you that Opec nations are corrupt and treat thier citizens unfairly.

However you are wrong about america not making terrorist attacks in Iraq. We did it by proxy, the Shah of Iran(the guy we gave a 100 currency relief to). We did it back to Iran.. we switched sides when we tried to stop their DEMOCRATIC movement. We backed SADDAM and his regime against Iran.

We have armed the current "northern alliance/opium warlords" against the soviets and then against the Taliban. We have switched sides so many times and in effect caused damages to people their many times over. That is only recent history...

We own this war not OPEC.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
DD that pic was again a pulitzer nomination for civilian detainment

Link?

I will dig it up, that was sent to me from a friend of mine working in Iraq. I will find it

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
I do agree with you that Opec nations are corrupt and treat thier citizens unfairly.

However you are wrong about america not making terrorist attacks in Iraq. We did it by proxy, the Shah of Iran(the guy we gave a 100 currency relief to). We did it back to Iran.. we switched sides when we tried to stop their DEMOCRATIC movement. We backed SADDAM and his regime against Iran.

We have armed the current "northern alliance/opium warlords" against the soviets and then against the Taliban. We have switched sides so many times and in effect caused damages to people their many times over. That is only recent history...

We own this war not OPEC.

When you have a clue about foreign policy, give me a call.

Did I serve? No. Doesn't matter. I don't need to serve to understand leaving Iraq now is stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
I will dig it up, that was sent to me from a friend of mine working in Iraq. I will find it

Good luck because I searched for awhile.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
I do agree with you that Opec nations are corrupt and treat thier citizens unfairly.

However you are wrong about america not making terrorist attacks in Iraq. We did it by proxy, the Shah of Iran(the guy we gave a 100 currency relief to). We did it back to Iran.. we switched sides when we tried to stop their DEMOCRATIC movement. We backed SADDAM and his regime against Iran.

We have armed the current "northern alliance/opium warlords" against the soviets and then against the Taliban. We have switched sides so many times and in effect caused damages to people their many times over. That is only recent history...

We own this war not OPEC.

We caused the Iran-Iraq War?
We caused the Soviets to invade?
Those people suffered because of us?

Dude step away from the crack pipe.

I dont advocate leaving Iraq DD, We are stuck because of our economy and our consumption of oil. I have traveled in the Middle east and come from overseas. I do have perspective along with actually serving. Your perspective of violence and enemy combatants is based from news and maybe some movies. That is not to say you can not understand just how barbaric the world is, but reading about it in a censored society and actually being there are completly different. You and I have the LUXURY of expecting water and electricity when we wake up. I have been in countries where that does not exist. You have not seen children who are maimed from war they dont understand. You dont understand that the DU rounds we use will poison the area they are used in and cause birth defects and cancer for years.
At least with Nav and Diehard when we disagree it is usually on semantics, but their is a general understanding. DD spend some time outside of this country in combat zones and then let me know if I am crying and whining.

My perspective on foreign policy is based from my minor in international business administration and from my experience in the military, plus extensive traveling.
Foreign policy is based really at this point on economics and to some degree always has been. So when you have something meaningful to add without personal attacks and profanity you can get back to me.

read closely DD and look up some history, we did not cause the wars we supported different factions within the region.

Yes DD if you supply the bullets and the guns along with money for the purpose to push and agenda knowing full well what they will be used for we are kind of responsible for what happens afterwards.

Why dont you pick up a history book or look up our economic historical relationships with each country and get back to me.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
Yes DD if you supply the bullets and the guns along with money for the purpose to push and agenda knowing full well what they will be used for we are kind of responsible for what happens afterwards.

Why dont you pick up a history book or look up our economic historical relationships with each country and get back to me.

I am a history major so I know a thing or three.

So, should we have let the Russians slaughter the Afghans?

Read my ass.