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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters  |
Sorry Alo. I guess my take is the same. I'm not asking anyone to believe anything. But there is a certain set of beliefs that makes you a particular religion. Or not. Did you want to take a shot at my question? WSS |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Um, what's the question again? Whether some beliefs can be fundamental to the faith while others aren't?
If that's the question, then I'd say yes. I don't know enough about Catholic theology and the current state of the Church to know what would be considered a fundamental principle of faith. But I imagine that the Nicene Creed would be where you'd start:
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Steve, once again, has changed the subject.
His idea that you believe it all otherwise you're not Catholic - and a liar - doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. It's laughable, and no member of the Catholic laity would be excommunicated or even denied communion if they didn't agree with, say, the Church's position on women in the priesthood. So now we're going to pretend that he really just meant the Immaculate Conception. Fancy that. Whether something is a more central tenet to the faith, or something more incidental or constructed by the Catholic hierarchy is not a concern of Steve's. Because he can't tell two unlike things apart. But to answer your question, having been out with friends all day, yes, one can be Catholic and not believe in the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception is a 19th century creation of the church, not something drawn directly from the Bible. No one is going to be excommunicated or denied Communion for that either. Now, Steve is free to believe what he wishes - that if you belong to a religion you must believe in everything the religion teaches. So long as he knows that this world only exists in his head. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Alo, I had to say that thing for years, every Sunday. Still know every word, even though it's been years since I stepped into a church. Funny how they like to drill that into your head before you even know what it means.
And that version is the old one, I think. We Catholics and former Catholics will tell you it's "of all that is seen and unseen" and not "of all things visible and invisible." "...begotten of the Father before all worlds" is not in there anymore. "Very God of Very God" isn't either. "...to judge the quick and the dead" sounds cool, but they say "to judge the living and the dead" now. The whole thing is slightly different. Same idea, though. I guess it was instructive in one sense. I remember it suddenly dawning on me one Sunday - "Wait a minute ...I don't believe a word of this crap." |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Okay - I'm glad I put in that "I don't know anything about Catholicism" exclaimer.
The last time I was in a Catholic church was in Vilnius five years ago, so my familiarity with the English-language service is pretty weak. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Ha. Consider yourself blessed.
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Pro Bowl Player |
And there it is in a nutshell. That the core beliefs of the Catholic Church are "crap" is probably how you actually feel. That makes me sad for you. Heck, I don't care about the essay nor your newest round of bickering with Steve nearly as much as I care about your obvious issue with Catholicism and faith in general. I don't know what happened to you in your life that has so embittered you towards issues of faith and religion but whatever it was, I hope you deal with it. You need peace with it, brother. Because the theme of your questions about faith and attacks on the faithful is consistent: you KNOW things, you are RATIONAL, and you are SUPERIOR because of your knowledge. It's all about YOU and what YOU can discern and it's all very rational and intellectual and you are very proud of your intelligence. But understanding our human existence is beyond the simply rational. There are things we do not and cannot know only through our physical senses and intellectual abilities. Faith in SOMETHING is as essentially human as the ability to be rational, and just as fundamental, heck. For whatever reason, I think you are missing that. I'd love to hear your thoughts on why that is. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
My peace came from losing organized religion, brother. It was a clarifying series of moments. I recommend it highly.
And I'd agree with you at the end there. There's a lot we don't know. And the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. One of those things I'm quite sure I don't know is what happens when you die. And I'm quite sure you don't know either. And I'd also agree that the idea of "faith" is something very human, and its very constant. That does not, however, oblige me to believe in or agree with the particular aspects of a certain "faith", or any faith. I don't think that's even that controversial - I'm sure you could think of lots of faiths whose beliefs you'd find hard to stomach. You might even find them ridiculous. And I'd also agree that my disagreements with Steve are beyond tiresome. As for faith, I've got faith in lots of things. None of them involve the supernatural, however. But I do always wonder where religious people get the nerve to ask everyone to take their incredible claims (virgin births, hell, returning saviors, etc.) at face value, while the absence of those beliefs is something I need to change, something that must be born out of some pain that I need to deal with, and something you feel bad for. Really, you don't need to feel bad. I'm quite alright. None of my priests touched me in the special place - and I even worked in the rectory. I have a very high opinion of one of my former priests. I just don't choose to believe that Jesus was God's son, and that he's in heaven now, or that he's coming back one day to judge the living and the dead. Crucified under Pontius Pilate, suffered, died, and was buried? That part I believe. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
PS - I don't think the core messages of the Catholic Church are crap. For the most part. I think they're very worthwhile messages.
I just don't know why you need to believe that Jesus rose from the dead to believe in his message. |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
So you won't answer? OK Well I guess I've said what I meant. I don't expect it from you. I say there are core beliefs that make you Catholic. You are free to disbelieve any of them. But I'd say you might consider calling yourself something else. Not doing that, however, makes you dishonest IMO. WSS |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Because he said he would.  |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Wasn't that your question? And if you don't believe enough of the Catholic doctrine, yes, you might want to consider calling yourself something else. But that's not what you said. You said either they have to believe in everything, like demonic possession, or they're not Catholics, and also liars. It was a ridiculous statement used to equate Bobby Jindal's beliefs in the personal power of exorcism with John Kerry's. Because, once again, you can't tell two unlike things apart. "Hey, they both call themselves Catholic - they must believe exactly the same things." |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Yeah Heck. Big difference. One has an R and one a D after his name. And if you don't believe in immaculate conception, you just aren't a Catholic. So I say you're wrong and merely bickering. WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Again, I'll let the Catholics I know who don't believe in Immaculate Conception, which was the church's 19th century attempt to square the circle of how Mary could have been born without original sin and thus given birth to God's son, that you don't think they're Catholic either.
Even though they live their lives to follow Christ's message, and think the Catholic Church is the closest vessel of Christ's message, and believe in the rituals and sacraments performed in the Catholic Church, which they consider worthwhile and/or divine. But sure, you can believe whatever you like. They're not really Catholic because they dispute what a Pope said was true in the 1800s. And by your questioning, I'm guessing you're one of those people who doesn't know what the Immaculate Conception is, or what the doctrine was put in place to do, and confuse it with the virgin birth of Christ. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
As fro the R and the D, you're just being a simpleton. It's really, really tiresome. Somehow I can have these principled debates with Tupa without it descending into this kind of crap, but it's really all you can muster.
If there were Democrats who performed some makeshift exorcism when they were in their early 20s, maybe you'd have a point that I was simply ignoring the time John Kerry and his Yale buddies did exactly the same thing. But they didn't. It's apples and oranges. And since you can't admit that some forms of Catholicism differ from others (and what Jindal participated in isn't even sanctioned by the Catholic Church) you resort to this kind of nonsense. Because, as we see every day and in every way, you can't distinguish between two unlike things. |
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Skipper of the Lake Erie Booze Patrol Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
When did the pope back off immaculate conception??? What's next; dump the cross logo? WSS |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
He didn't.
Do you really think that all Catholics believe that what the Pope or the Church has said is as equally important as what Christ said? You're really reaching here. Yes, there are some beliefs that make someone a Catholic. But Catholicism does not require full-scale adherence to every single edict and doctrine ever put forward by the Church, as you suggest. Or back to the original point, one not need believe in demonic possession to be a Catholic. And if you don't believe in demonic possession and still call yourself a Catholic, that doesn't make you a liar. I can't believe you're still holding on to these ridiculous points. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Dama, I hope you see the flaw in your assumption that Heck must be troubled because he doesn't believe in unprovable and often absurd supernatural tales.
I've met him. He's a really happy, likable, and successful guy. Very funny, nice to the wait staff, and so on. Frankly, I know as many admitted athiests/agnostics as I do active Catholics and Jews, and the vast majority of the combined whole are actually agnostics. That is, they go or don't go to church as a pragmatic choice, not as part of absolutely knowing anything. And they're quite aware that they don't. And there's no correlation that I can see between "faith" (choosing to believe) and happiness or kindness. Zilch. |
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Hall of Fame Legend |
Shep's comment reminded me of this, so I'll post it:
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters |
Tom, so you know, there was a 20/20 on the modern Athiest movement, and their stats were virtual opposites.
BTW, the accepted definition of an agnostic athiest is that not only is the nature of God uknowable, but also the existence of God. An "AA" does NOT conclude that there is no God. That's it. Nothing more. I personally find that impossible to argue with. I don't mind at all if others disagree. I wouldn't be stunned that people who go to church would report themselves as happier, or that they might find peace in "believing." There are many "beliefs" that would make me more peaceful and happier... if I could make myself buy off on them. If I could steadily and carefully be delivered a measured amount of opiates, I might report myself as happier, too. |
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