This is a prisoner trying to hold his son in Iraq. A friend of mine sent me this pic and it hurts being a father watching his torment and the childs. Regardless of what any of our own opinions this hurts me because of the child and his father.

Honestly I can think of holding my children just like this when they were distressed. We are still humans and the family cost and pain is tremendous on all sides.

That is one way of looking at it, sure. But what if that guy is a maker of IED's that blows up children in the marketplace?

I hear you desert but we cant lose perpsective of what makes America great. The way we treat humans regardless of what they are accused of. I know in Iraq we do a lot of summary roundups by the military without any proof of anything.

That is not the american way in which many have fought an died for. I am just saying that at the essence of all conflicts we are still the same humans.

Steve, I'm not even sure any of that's relevant or that it would do anything but escalate the heartbreak.

This man is clearly a loving father, whatever else he is (or isn't, because the vast majority of those incarcerated are innocent). The emotional torture to him and his son is crushing.

So, SO important to remember what war (or conflict) is really about... and that's people. Human beings.

Great stuff, Sev.

this is a picture in Iraq of when we round up "suspects" we bag them so they dont see where they are going or whats going on around them. The child is his evidently this camp or facility is in his hometown.

quote:

Originally posted by shepwrite:
whatever else he is

You mean terrorists and insurgents should not be locked up because they are loving fathers? These guys are blowing up markets, hiding behind civilians, killing civilians for terror, and robbing the state of security. They can be loving fathers all they want. Heartbreaking may ass. Fook him. He is trying to kill Americans.

dd you know that based on what? Its amazing how fast we lose our democratic principles in the face of violence and adversity. We are a great nation because of those principles not the weapons we have.

If we truly believe that all men are created eqaul and should have the same due process of the law than that applies to everyone. He is guilty until proven innocent and we would and do not treat mass murderers like tim mcviegh this way not rapist or serial murderers.

It is what we do when things are difficult which defines our greatness or lack thereof, not abandoning those principles because we are in a occupation action. You want the Iraqi to support us than it starts from how we treat even those who may or may not have harmed us. We are doing roundps in Iraq of entire neighborhoods where morters or rpg are launched. That is not a way to win the hearts and minds of anyone.

That attitude of justifiable abandoning of principles is exactly why we are being called hypocrits. This could be our oppurtunity to show the middle east and the world exactly how to treat innocents and criminals. This is an oppurtunity to show how CIVILIZED we are not how equally barbaric we can be.

LEAD BY EXAMPLE IN THE MIDST OF OF SEEMINGLY DIFFICULT AND IMPOSSIBLE ODDS AND MANY WILL FOLLOW YOU, ABANDON THOSE PRINCIPLES WHICH MAKE US CIVILIZED AND GREAT AND FALL INTO THE ABYSS OF BARBARISM.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
dd you know that based on what? .

That is exactly what I am saying. How do we know what this guy did or did not do? Do I feel bad for the kid? Yes. Do I feel bad for the father? I don't know. What did he do?

Do we lock up people who are innocent? Yes, but I think we are getting better at not doing that. We're not perfect. War is not fought in a vacuum. Mistakes are made.

We make the fewest mistakes in war in the world. In the history of the world for that matter.

Killing Americans is no more heinous than killing Iraqis. Dead even. Both are human beings.

Bruce Springsteen wrote about this after 9/11 but BEFORE we wasted all of our "currency" and world standing:

"What if what you do to survive kills the things you love?"

Like compassion, empathy, forgiveness, and mercy? What really is the point of survival without those things?

Boy can write.

DD our conduct in Iraq has been unorganized and lacked oversight. Hell until recently US mercenaries could do ANYTHING THEY WANTED. They still only are answerable in a limited capacity to Centcom.

The soldiers there are trying, but our policies directly from the Adm have abondoned all of our principles of what makes us great. I am a father and this hurts me from one father to another along with the child.

this is picture is not acceptable behavior and treatment of anyone to me. this would violate our laws and military code of conduct and should be extended to any enemy combatant or non national. This is only contributes to more hate for us short term and long. This behavior strengthens our enemies PR war against us and recruiting now and in the future.

Summary roundups are not acceptable to me in any way. Treating civilians like this in not acceptable. This child should have never have seen his father subjected to this treatment period.

I value Iraqi's and American's too. I do not value terrorists or insurgents.

You're getting your panties in a wad over a guy that you have no clue about. What did he do? Who did he kill? Did he build bombs? Did he work for Iran?

Slow down. You have no clue about this guy.

How do we know this was an American camp?

because this was a pulitzer nomination done by a verified ap photographer embedded in Iraq. This is specifically an example of our civilian roundups to be more specific.

I am a vet, I know what it takes to serve in contries in the middle east. I understand violence and what it does to soldiers permanently personally.

I value the constitution and our bill of rights. I value them enought to know what distinction that gives our culture and why it is worth fighting for. So yes this behavior pisses me off, and that attitude of abondonment of our priciples that many have died for gets "my panties in a bunch".

So you have no new info on who the guy is or what he did, but your spilling your bleeding heart all of this board for a guy you have no idea about? Interesting.

>>That is one way of looking at it, sure. But what if that guy is a maker of IED's that blows up children in the marketplace?[/QUOTE]

War is not fun. If it was fun, it would be called Fun, not War.

I just wish people thought of war this way when things like Waterboarding are talked about.

PS That picture tears at my heart.

>>......the vast majority of those incarcerated are innocent).>>

Say what? Run that by me again.

Sources?

I never actually witnessed this myself, but my brother told me when he did his tour in Vietnam (which was several years before I went at the end of the war) the South Korean Marines who were stationed there would take prisoners up in helicopters, about 100 feet, question them, etc. If they didn't get the answer they wanted they took a dive. This prisoner at least was allowed to have his son visit. This photographer was allowed to take the picture. Get my point?

Yes I get the point, I am not the summary of other soldiers or their actions. No one culture is innocent in any way nor would I ever state that. In fact my other nationality is a lot more severe than the US. I choose to live here for a lot of reasons and one of them is what I percieve is better here than there. Diehard When you were in Nam you have seen things like I have in other countries that no civilian ever sees or ever wants to.

You know how barbaric the world can be and what a bastion of hope this country is in comparison. You and I may not see eye to eye on a lot of things but one thing we both probably have in common is the love for this country and what it stands for. That may be expressed differently but it is none the less there.

My bleeding heart? yes my heart has softened considerably since i have had children. Yes my perspective and what i do has changed dramatically. Yes it hurts me as a father to see his pain and especially his child. I dont know any other info than what I posted, however it was the message that i personally felt from the picture. So yes It hurts me to see photos like this because of other personal experiences I had when I was serving. It is now different for me since having and raising children. You could say I had an armor of a lack of empathy or true understanding when I was young so things bothered me but not in the same way they do now.

Someone that I know that works currently in Iraq for a private organization sometimes sends me things because he needs to share the load. We talk and sometimes it gets to both of us. I have far worse of pics of children hurt and killed from our offensives and internal Iraqi combat. I wont share them because they are too graphic and honestly they make me cry. I dont know why I keep them, but sometimes I look at them to remind myself of what is happening to my North korean cousins and what is happening to innocent civilians caught up in our policy/economic war. So yes I now have a bleeding heart and I can thank my children for changing me.

quote:

Originally posted by DesertDawg:

quote:

Originally posted by shepwrite:
whatever else he is

You mean terrorists and insurgents should not be locked up because they are loving fathers? These guys are blowing up markets, hiding behind civilians, killing civilians for terror, and robbing the state of security. They can be loving fathers all they want. Heartbreaking may ass. Fook him. He is trying to kill Americans.

They are the Iraqi civilians.......Yep Iraqi freedom fighters should not be rounded and treated like animals by an invading nation of ruthless imperialists.......they should be honored for defending the homeland