From Obama's speech last night:

John McCain said that George Bush’s economic policies have led to “great progress” over the last seven years, and so he’s promising four more years of tax cuts for CEOs and corporations who didn’t need them and weren’t asking for them; tax cuts that he once voted against because he said they “offended his conscience.”

Well they may have stopped offending John McCain’s conscience somewhere along the road to the White House, but George Bush’s economic policies still offend ours. Because I don’t think that the 232,000 Americans who’ve lost their jobs this year are seeing the great progress that John McCain has seen. I don’t think the millions of Americans losing their homes have seen that progress. I don’t think the families without health care and the workers without pensions have seen that progress. And if we continue down the same reckless path, I don’t think that future generations who’ll be saddled with debt will see these as years of progress.

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Rich people paying about 91% of the income tax rates they did in 2000 is the reason that people are defaulting on mortgages and losing jobs? I dont know who these speeches make me question more, Obama or the people lapping it up.

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“great progress”

Expect to hear this until your ears bleed.

But I think you missed Obama's point, Toop, probably on purpose. He basically said there are a lot of Americans who would deg to biffer with McCain's take. And that's tough to shoot down no matter how necessary it is to your politics.

I don't heartily dislike McCain... but he's going to have to snap out of it fast. The Orwellian thing is transparent now. You can't just say the economy's great and our successes in Iraq are worthy of national holidays anymore. You can't give blue ribbons to the perpetrators.

Once something's the butt of jokes on SNL and the Daily Show for six years, it's tough to keep running it up the flagpole. The percentage of Americans still stubbornly covering their ears to anything that isn't exactly what they want to hear has shrunk drastically to the point of insignificance.

McCain's better than that. He's old, nice, qualified, and boring... and he isn't an idiot.

So is Obama suggesting that I wait until January 2009 to start living well beyond my means? I mean, don't get me wrong, my house is nice, but I'd like to live on the water. Other people are already living on the water.

If Obama can walk on it, I should be able to live on it, dammit.

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If Obama can walk on it, I should be able to live on it, dammit.

That's a pretty funny line.

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But I think you missed Obama's point, Toop, probably on purpose. He basically said there are a lot of Americans who would deg to biffer with McCain's take.

No, I think you are all too willing to assume the best possible meaning. Too often Obama is given a pass for saying things he shouldnt by people that take the time to pour over his words and consider the background, context, possible missteps, etc. Consider what people heard when he said it, not what you want it to mean in the grand scheme of the election.

He said:
McCain thinks Bush's economy was great.
So McCain is going to give more tax cuts to the rich pricks.
McCain once said that those tax cuts were offensive.
We still think Bush's policy's are offensive BECAUSE people lost jobs, health care, housing crisis, etc...

Obama didnt say:
McCain thinks we have made progress, but I disagree. Here is why:

He causally connected tax cuts and Bush's policy to job losses, mortgage defaults, and a lack of pensions.

One more time:

He is offended by Bush's policy BECAUSE people lost their jobs, defaulted on their mortgages, dont have health care, and dont have pensions.

That is what he said. He doesnt get to have a point that excludes what comes out of his mouth. He's getting 35,000 people to listen to his speeches, not pour over the transcripts.

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Because I don’t think that the 232,000 Americans who’ve lost their jobs this year are seeing the great progress that John McCain has seen. I don’t think the millions of Americans losing their homes have seen that progress. I don’t think the families without health care and the workers without pensions have seen that progress. And if we continue down the same reckless path, I don’t think that future generations who’ll be saddled with debt will see these as years of progress.

I have no freaking clue what you're reading. This is what you posted.

I think you've sort of over dissected it until something that makes irrefutable sense turns into something you can criticize.

Don't you? I mean... isn't McCain the moron in this play? Isn't he the one who said Bush's economy is good?

Aren't you... and McCain... just pissing in the wind? And isn't Obama shooting fish in a barrel?

It looks that way to me, man. I'm sorry.

I know I am going to regret this, I think Tupa is making a valid point. There I said it and the world did not end.

Obama is one hell of a public speaker and his writers do make over generalized simplistic populist driven speeches. The connections that Tupa was implying are actually quite accurate.

Lets be completely honest I know because i work in the financial fields and with real estate that the bubble bursting on an over inflated sales market does not come as a surprise. The other thing is that the secondary and ever expanding mortgage insurance industry were getting extremely aggressive and lessening documentation requirements. Neither of these unconnected problems are connected with ANY Bush fiscal policy. You can not blame the ADm over a overinflated real estate market coupled with extremely aggressive risky mortgage insurance undrewriting guidelines. This actually started during the Clinton years not the Bush years.

The other connection with Bush that Obama casually is trying to connect falsly is the job loss to overseas countries. Factually again this has been going on for quite some time and actually were increased during the clinton years (Nafta). Health care is not the Bush adm fault,it is a general fault of our entire people and our government for the last 30 years.

I am going to regret this but on this topic i do agree with Tupa.

There's nothing wrong with that, Sev. He's a smart guy.

But Obama's point was clear and valid, right? General and broad... but valid. He's talking to lay people.

It isn't tough to connect McCain to Bush because he already did that himself. It's almost required that Obama call him on it... which he did, simply and eloquently.

It's pretty simple math. I don't see how you can really dispute it.

I am not disputing that Mccain in a lot of ways is the continuation of economic policies geared toward rewarding top level business.

I dont think they need the tax cut continuation would they like to see it continue? Hell yes and they are lobbying for it and will continue to do so. I know most speeches are geared for the masses and therefore simplistic in their connections. They know that any speech can and will become a 30 second sound bite for the opposition or even used in their own pr campaigns.

I dont like Mccain suddenly shifting with the pacs because he desperately needs their money to run against the dems. Mccain is "flip flopping"(i hate that term).
As Tupa pointed out the wealthy pay a vast majority of the taxes. However the flip side is that they benefit EXTREMELY from our free market protected by our mainly low and middle class military and police force.

I am still extremely undecided and honestly Mccain has yet to earn my vote. There is some wierd part of me that wants Hillary to win it all because she will make the first correct step in fixing our health care system by making it mandatory. That is the only reason I might want her to win.
Still Obama and all of the coverage the dems are getting throut this grueling nomination process is starting to grate on my nerves. He is a great speaker but I do question just how effective he will be as a president.

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That's a pretty funny line.

Thanks - glad someone caught that I was joking. There are people who actually feel that way, which is who I was poking at. Here Obama gives them the "answer" - and they eat it up.

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But Obama's point was clear and valid, right? General and broad... but valid. He's talking to lay people.

Shep- I disagree, this is reallyreaching. Obama has delievered a Katrina-sized non-sequitur with this one.
Yes McCain is a boob for generalizing & saying that "Bush's policies . . . " but Obama is trying to snare him by tugging on heart strings with one hand, then billy-clubbing a serving of stupid with the other.
He's taken two facts - events that have factually happened- and tried to connect the two when anyone with a double digit IQ knows they cant be connected in that way. It's glaringly obvious.

And if he is really talkign to "lay people" then so was McCain re: "Al Quaeda"