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Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
I am not anti semite by any measure

I don't think you are. Sorry for creating that impression.

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however when our government 99% time back israel completely against the palestinions I have to ask myself why?

I guess a stated US policy of endorsing the creation of a Palestinian state counts for less than 1% support for the Palestinians.

Like I said before, I'm completely with you that US policy should be to disentangle Israel and the Palestinians. Hopefully, our next president will actively pursue this goal; it's part of the reason why I support Obama.

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I have seen the disgusting deplorable conditions the palestinions live in and watched Israeli bulldozers take down a suspected house regardless of who it belonged to.

Deplorable conditions where - do you remember the town(s) you visited? Gaza or West Bank?

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They have no country,jobs,economy nothing and yet we set comfortable here backing Israel with their policies when we helped displace all of those people in the first place. How in the hell is that fair and or humanitarian?

How did we displace the Palestinians?

One of the problems with the Palestinian economy is that it's totally dependent on Israel's. So when terrorist attacks occur & Israel cordons off the West Bank, Palestinian day laborers suffer because of it.

That's the part of the reason why people who say, "I support the Palestinians, so I support imposing economic sanctions on Israel," would end up hurting the people they claim to support.

And if Arafat hadn't stolen virtually all of their economic & humanitarian aid, maybe the Palestinians would have a developed economy of their own.

Aloy yes we have a "stated" policy about supposably supporting a palestinion state but we support Israeli measures and policies that suppress the palestinions.

Most of what we saw was on the west bank side of jerusalem. We went also so a lot of small walled of section of a couple of farming communities along the border. They obviously like south korea have a very hostile border so we were there for obvious like training reasons.

How did we displace the palestinions? come on by helping to create a state for ww2 jews. That land was already occupied by the palestinions. I am sure arafat was not perfect but the humanitarion aid would not have helped them create a state when israel agressively controls all of their borders for its fragmented population.

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Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
How did we displace the palestinions? come on by helping to create a state for ww2 jews. That land was already occupied by the palestinions.

This is about as informed an account as anything I'd write about Korea, so I'll cut you some slack.

For background, wikipedia's always helpful:

First Aliyah: though there's been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel-Palestine, the first large influx of Jewish immigrants came in the 1880's. Before WWII.

Balfour Declaration of 1917: British colonial policy of creating a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine, which then included what is now Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, and Jordan. Before WWII. And Britain, not the US.

In 1922, Jordan was separated and given to the Hashemite monarchy.

1947 UN Partition Plan for Palestine:



Through the Yishuv (the Jewish governmental body) wasn't thrilled with the partition plan, it agreed to support the proposal. By contrast, the Arab nations rejected it and declared war on the nascent Jewish state.

And yes, in the ensuing war, many Palestinians ended up being displaced. I hope that someday that their descendants can return to a Palestinian state - but not to live back in Israel proper.

It doesn't get mentioned much, but between 700,000-900,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands when Israel was created. Those refugees came to Israel with nothing, and Israel took up the burden of permanently resettling them. On the other hand, the Arab countries have found it preferable to keep the Palestinian in primitive refugee camps, thereby preventing them from integrating into Arab society.

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I am sure arafat was not perfect but the humanitarion aid would not have helped them create a state when israel agressively controls all of their borders for its fragmented population.

I disagree. In the late 90's, I traveled through the West Bank. This was when the peace process still had a pulse and much of the West Bank was policed & controlled by the Palestinian authority.

For instance, when I visited Jericho, the people with guns were PA policemen, not Israeli soldiers. Jericho's economy was beginning to grow, partly due to the tranquil political environment making Israelis comfortable visiting Jericho's huge casino (because of Israel's own religious right, gambling is illegal in Israel proper).

It was during the 90's that the Palestinians had a grand opportunity to develop their economy. Unfortunately, Arafat stole that chance away from them.

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Why is there a media blackout on wounded soldiers and dead civilians?

Because it serves no purpose other than to invoke emotion.

Most are appalled.

The difference is the reasons.

If I as an example saw my kid on television all wounded or dead, I swear I would consider hunting down the producer/director who decided to show such a thing and film it as I chopped his or her arm off with a dull hatchet.


See....emotions bring out different things in different people.

It is best to just keep that out of the mix.

You are wrong Ballpeen, and I mean this with forthrightness.

If America was a free country and the facts of what happened were presented this war would have been over in 2005 and Cheney and Bush would be trialed for WAR CRIMES right now

they rival the nazis

But the fact is America is not free now............

and you and I got make it free again

Your kid got the right idea...show the massacres and bombings and results and let the people decide

instead of feeding them bullshit for five years

Listen aloysius I completely agree that the palestinions and their leadership bear a heavy burden for why they have the problems they do. You have been thru the area and its not a picnic by any measure anywhere.

those plans mandated by the UN in 1947 have obviously since the war Israel won has been changed drastically. Israel right now is continueing expansion into more west bank settlements. I dont have a problem with having an ally in the middle east, I have a problem with the disjointed amount of political and military support we do give them. The jewish population in the world certainly deserve to have a place to call their own and defend themselves. I dont like Hezbollah, I dont like Iran but the reality is that the jews are a major minority in that area and to be fair we need to address the other side equally. You know we dont and so do they.

That from a PR standpoint which is part of the "hearts and mind" theory of military/political techniques we are clearly losing. You cant marginalize and call them "terrorists" because they have a different agenda than a clearly militarily powerful Israel that basically we created and support their military.
That imbalance is why we create enemies over their and are losing this PR war which is another cause for our difficulties in Iraq.

I basically agree with everything you said there, Sev.

I don't know if I agree with the whole terrorist/criminal distinction, but I think that's a minor issue.

What matters is that a two state solution is good for the Palestinians, it's good for Israel, and it's good for the United States.

Hopefully, our next president will work harder to get us to that noble goal.

Work harder or work at all.....all Bush has done is pee on Muslims and Middle Easterners albeit Saudis and allow Israel to attack whomever for whatever and call those attacked terrorists

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You are wrong Ballpeen, and I mean this with forthrightness.

If America was a free country and the facts of what happened were presented this war would have been over in 2005 and Cheney and Bush would be trialed for WAR CRIMES right now

they rival the nazis

Sorry Rich.

I am correct. You are the one that's wrong.

Well we agree to disagree..........I support freedom of speech and dissemination of information to the people no matter how ugly. Viet Nam would have lasted a lot more years with a lot more deaths if that was not the case.

Your solution breeds and supports censorship and fascism.....like what us happening in the US now........ the war with no bodies and no carnage.......the tax cuts with no impact the printing of money with no destruction of the currency

We can disagree ..........Freedom is fragile ..........your solution encourages destruction of freedom and aids fascism or worse and state manipulation and control of the people.

My view embellishes freedom and democracy and makes our founding principles difficult to destroy.......even if sometimes the ugly gets presented

You too buddy I love it when the fun side comes out of yah.........ah heck