This is also a consequence of a blind backing of everything Israeli and our dependency on Oil by our irresponsible selfish behavior with buying goods from china and Big inefficient cars.
I know we talk back and forth about war but we dont "see" enough reality. The "pain" at the pump is BS. The wounded and the dead along with the psychologically traumatized are the ones who have the pain for OUR policies and buying/driving habits.
Ok, this guy died of his wounds after a long period of sufferi ng. Using him for your agenda is pretty fooked up Sev. He was a proud member of the U.S. Military and wouldn't appreciate your using him after his death for your benefit. Have a nice day.
Posts: 1414 | Location: Cuyahoga County | Registered: Mon September 18 2006
I'm betting he would REALLY appreciate it if someone had shown his predecessor's picture as the true face of war... and then he hadn't been put in harm's way for the benefit of America's rich.
Look away, DieHard. Most people do. And that's why we keep putting kids in situations that are NOT about "fighting for freedom."
you Know what diehard, you are not the "only" ex vet here that has served, My other country has been in state of war for a long time. I have served in multiple active theatres. This is not propaganda and IF you have served in active combat than you know the only way to understand that is to either be there yourself or show the truth of what our decisions actually cost. My "boots" have actually hit the ground in combat I know the truth of the violent decisions I made.
This is not propaganda its not a slogan this is the demostration of the ultimate truth. Remind yourself of that the next time you talk about service and policy like its a high school debate. My "propaganda" is about honest discussion and responsibility so my children and yours dont have this outcome because of our irresponsible behavior. You remember Honor and Duty, that also extends to when you are a civilian.
I'm betting he would REALLY appreciate it if someone had shown his predecessor's picture as the true face of war... and then he hadn't been put in harm's way for the benefit of America's rich.
While we're at it can someone post pictures of rape or murder and torture victims from, say, LA county? And the photos of the repeat offenders and the attorneys that let them back out on the street?
While we're seething with outrage that is. WSS
Posts: 5069 | Location: Norton Ohio USA | Registered: Mon September 15 2003
It would be great if everyone bought into that but that is not the case. While what happened to this young man is sad it is the price that we pay for the freedom that we have. There is no getting around that. Sev in a way you should know that better then most considering your 2nd country lives on the brink of war and we could spend all day talking about things that the NK has done.
Now while we are looking at images. Remember the ones that did not sign on the dotted line, the ones that were going to work and those that tried to save them.
Originally posted by sevknowsbetter: you Know what diehard, you are not the "only" ex vet here that has served, My other country has been in state of war for a long time. I have served in multiple active theatres. This is not propaganda and IF you have served in active combat than you know the only way to understand that is to either be there yourself or show the truth of what our decisions actually cost. My "boots" have actually hit the ground in combat I know the truth of the violent decisions I made.
This is not propaganda its not a slogan this is the demostration of the ultimate truth. Remind yourself of that the next time you talk about service and policy like its a high school debate. My "propaganda" is about honest discussion and responsibility so my children and yours dont have this outcome because of our irresponsible behavior. You remember Honor and Duty, that also extends to when you are a civilian.
Hey, ASSHOLE SEV, you make me wanno ****ing throw up. Ban me whatever, but your not going to get away with your ****ing talk about service. I actually served in REAL combat in Vietnam and Iraq. Your imaginary service in Korea does not impress me. You never served in Vietnam, you never served in any actual combat, so quit trying to bullshit everyone on here asshole. Your dual status does not equate to shit to me, understand? so **** YOU.
Posts: 1414 | Location: Cuyahoga County | Registered: Mon September 18 2006
Originally posted by sevknowsbetter: This is also a consequence of a blind backing of everything Israeli
Um, no.
I'm as critical as anyone about Israel's occupation of the West Bank, but I don't think Israel bears responsibility for the Iraq war.
If you believe some reports, Prime Minister Sharon actually advised Bush against invading Iraq, saying that it would upset the balance of power in the Middle East.
quote:
Originally posted by DieHardBrownsFan: Ok, this guy died of his wounds after a long period of sufferi ng. Using him for your agenda is pretty fooked up Sev.
Ok diehard post a response like a madman. My father,uncle, and grandfather all served in Vietnam. I know a ton of vets from that war and none of them remotely respond like you do. I served in theatres outside of South korea like every other rokmc does. We are known for what we are because of Vietnam (if you served during that period you should know what contribution we made and our reputation speaks for itself.) I dont need to get into a pissing match with you or give grand examples of actual experience. If you want to throw around some language go ahead.
I dont really know you and you dont really know me so post whatever cursing responses you want. The only thing you accomplish is showing just how immature you are and how not to have an adult disagreement or conversation. Usually people act so rashly and lash out when the someone hits a little to close to the truth. I am not going to ban you or whatever, that is juvenile just like your response. IF you have served in both of those theatres you would think your level of maturity and ability to deal with opposing ideas would have been a whole lot greater than what you just showed.
I do remember that day very vividly Nav but do you remember this? We did not go to "war" with another country over what a CRIMINAL organization did. that is the difference and why this is so wrong. Oklahoma was no less or no more of an attack than New york. Criminal organizations are not nations. What this soldier and many others are suffering from and that 9-11 is used to validate is simply wrong.
known for what we are because of Vietnam (if you served during that period you should know what contribution we made and our reputation speaks for itself.) I dont need to get into a pissing match with you or give grand examples of actual experience. If you want to throw around some language go ahead.
I know the ROK marines, tried to save some during a botched beach assault. You don't know me. I doubt you were a ROK marine. Maybe a ROK admin type by the style of your responses. Bottom line, shut the **** up.
Posts: 1414 | Location: Cuyahoga County | Registered: Mon September 18 2006
aloysius Israel is part of the problem which drew the criminals to attack us in the first place. They are part of why Iraq is infiltrated by foreign fighters that destabilize it currently. We back Israel blindly and create the enemies we have because of the Palestinion oppression we help continue. So yes our policies with Israel is heavily contributing to why other middle eastern countries wont help with stabilizing Iraq because they see this as a proxy war against us and Israel.
You are worried about the "distasteful" picture of a severly wounded soldier? Whats really distasteful is the fact that "unbiased" Bush influence media does not show the Public the true cost of war. We would not have so many stupid gung ho arm chair war hawks if more people could see the TRUTH OF OUR OCCUPATION.
Aloysius when was the last time you saw one of "hero's" on the news and a public mourning for the soldiers dead? Why is there a media blackout on wounded soldiers and dead civilians? Our leadership does not want you to see the real cost because you would be more outraged. This is intentional media blackout so we keep going along with this so far 800billion and counting dollar war.
For me I think this soldier deserves to be recognized for the pain and suffering so we see the real cost of war and try to do something to save other soldiers from this fate. If this were my son I would want everyone to know the suffering he went thru because he was a soldier and be recognized for the sacrifice he made. Yes real war is sickening and unconfortable that is why what Bush did when he hid from active duty is so detestable to me. You should be outraged and disgusted daily as this war wains because this is happening right now to another civilian and or soldier because of our country.
The people that did that are not criminals. They did not break a law, they attacked us. They have the backing of many different goveernments in the Middle East, who is there friend depends on which way the wind is blowing. It was not long ago that all of the PLO was considered terrorists.
We went into Iraq for a reason and personally I think it was a good one. Anyone that has spent any time in the Gulf knows just how easy it is to smuggle stuff. Saddam should have shut up when he had the chance, he pushed and lost. Are problems there go back way before this and there are going to be there after who ever is elected next. Peace in the Middle East is not going to happen. You want to talk about class seperation and the haves and have nots. As long as the few are reaping in more then any corp around here you are going to have people selling hate as religion.
We were attacked on our soil. It is easy to talk about what ifs and such but there is no doubt in my mind that if we would have let this slide like the USS Cole we would have been picking up bodies somewhere else. People like to realtionize a situation and a group of people that are not rational. We responded in the only way we could. Yes I also believe that if given the chance they will do it again, so in protecting my children I have no problem with giving 10 times better then we took.
Israel, no that is an excuse, maybe once that was a real reason but follow the money. Does no one else find it funny that the people funding the terrorist are the same that are getting rich off of oil. Ever wonder what would happen if the people there did not have us or Israel to hate. Bet we would see some Gov't going down.
As for the pic, I do not know what the man did or did not feel about the war. But since he started a foundation for burned children I would say he had the media's ear. I never heard him speak out agaist the actions that eventially cost him his life. Thus I do not feel that you have the right to use his picture to do that. If you have direct quotes from him, then you are readdressing his opinion. If not, well then it is wrong.
you are correct in one respect, rokmc ALL have to serve on the ground regardless of rank. Otherwise we would be regular army or navy. I am honestly sorry if I offended you, I do have the utmost respect for all citizens who served. If you feel the need to be angry I dont understand but by all means go ahead. Maybe on another topic we can be more civil or agreeable.
First his picture was an ap photo at a public media op. which means he gave his consent to have his likeness used and distributed. this was taken when he was alive. He does not have to speak out against anything, he is an example of an american who gave and was like any of us who served basically government property or public property. He is a individual who we have lost and his picture from me as a post is a form of outrage at losing another soldier because of our own policies and irresponsible consumption. I want him to be remembered for his sacrifice and why we need to change so it does not happen again. You can see it in a disagreeable way.
The people who attacked us are criminals, they are even classified by criminals by our government. They do not represent an armed nation, are they by proxy furthering an agenda from different nations? yes but they do not represent that nation or its collective peoples. That is the differentation of the law and guidlines of what makes a nation or not. Iraq did not attack us, like it or not they were a international legal soveriegn nation that had rights to pursue anti american positions. Bush used 9-11 to pursue an action against Iraq, he and his cronies were completely wrong. Nothing we did actually made us safer in Iraq. In fact it made our economy more volatile and we are spending and borrowing to pay for this war. So you would back an action that is economically and militarily detrimental? That does not make any sense.
When Heck posted the "What are you top five issues" thread, brokering a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians was one of my top five.
And yes, brokering such a deal will help our standing in the Arab world. But I think it's a mistake to say that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank is the reason Al Qaeda attacked us.
If you check out the Arab public opinion poll I posted awhile back, between 7-10% of Arabs believe that all Muslims should live under Sharia law. For that reason, they admire Al Qaeda.
It stands to reason that those are the type of fervent Islamic radicals whom Al Qaeda would recruit to attack America. And for those individuals, us not solving Israel-Palestine is a grievance, but not their ultimate casus belli.
What not solving Israel-Palestine does is it shifts public opinion in the Arab world towards Al Qaeda. Not just religious fundamentalists, but also rank-and-file "secular Muslims".
So you're right, Sev, that our unwillingness to actively engage the issue causes other Arab countries to be less than helpful on Iraq.
But the kind of people who want to broker such an accord are also the kind of people who wouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place. Beyond that, the Bush administration has been actively preventing Israel from trying to broker a peace with Syria, which makes matters worse in Iraq and southern Lebanon.
Add to that the reports that Sharon advised Bush not to invade Iraq, and I can't see how you can blame Israel for our presence in Iraq.
If anything, people who support Israel realize that us invading Iraq made Israel much less safe, as it eliminated the strongman counterbalancing Iran and put the US military in a position in which bombing Iran is untenable. Alan Dershowitz - a guy I'm not much of a fan of - made this argument way back in 2004.
Originally posted by sevknowsbetter: Aloysius when was the last time you saw one of "hero's" on the news and a public mourning for the soldiers dead? Why is there a media blackout on wounded soldiers and dead civilians? Our leadership does not want you to see the real cost because you would be more outraged.
I'll agree with that, but I don't think posting pictures of the wounded is the solution.
I think Ted Koppel's approach - reading the names of our fallen soldiers at the end of every broadcast - is a much better way to respond.
Spencer Ackerman does something similar on his blog.
No, you should have to look at it before you support an unnecessary war. Reading names sounds noble and pretty. It isn't.
I hear the torture doc by the Thin Blue Line guy (Errol Morris) is absolutely stunning, horrifying, and draining. It lets you see what torture LOOKS like. How it reduces not just their humanity, but our own. How it diminishes us as a culture.
It doesn't let you take the easy way out. Bullshit patriotic rhetoric is the facade, not the truth. The truth is ugly.
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