Hall of Fame Legend
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quote: Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
This guy isn't Pat Robertson. Pat Robertson is a true lunatic. I mean, that guy should be raving on the street with a sandwich board around his neck.
But come on, Tupa. There's a real difference between the religious politics of even the Mondale/Reagan race, or the Bush/Dukakis race, or Clinton/Dole, and the tenor of today's races. I can't imagine you can't tell the difference. Simply noting that religion has been raised as an issue before doesn't paper over the degree to which this has been injected into political life in the last ten years.
Sure, religion plays a different role, but I dont think Clinton had to "prove" any more about his religion than JFK, Lincoln, or Jefferson did. If you arent a card-carrying Protestant, then you have some explaining to do. If you are a card-carrying Protestant, then you need to let us know. Right or wrong, that much of it has always been true. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters
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But I'm sure you'd agree that no one has injected their faith into a campaign like Bush did. And it was pure political strategy. And it worked.
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Hall of Fame Legend
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quote: Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
But I'm sure you'd agree that no one has injected their faith into a campaign like Bush did. And it was pure political strategy. And it worked.
It was political strategy to the extent that he saw huge interest among Christians for certain policies, and he decided to represent them. It isnt like they were empty words; he gave them the Supreme Court they wanted, he fought gay marriage, he fought for vouchers, he fought for increased funding to religious nonprofits, etc. One could call it "pure political strategy" or one could say that he was the first one to listen to that huge group of passionate Americans. Neither is very wrong. Neither is very right. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters
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Oh, no. This was Rove showing up with the numbers that told him all he needed to do to get elected was to get more Evangelicals out. Screw the middle and the indepedents, energize the base. This is pretty well-known stuff. And that's where all this "Jesus is my favorite political philosopher" and "faith-based initiatives" stuff came from. He didn't truly believe in it. Ever heard of David Kuo? He learned the hard way. This was a political strategy first and foremost, one he also learned from watching his Dad lose that part of the party.
Christ, there are even people who go back with Bush in Texas who claim he wasn't interested in religion at all until they showed him how it could get him elected in Texas. Then he used the same formula in the national election.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but I doubt it.
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And there are Republicans that dont truly believe in Reaganomics, Dems that dont think Unions should be a primary concern in labor law, etc. But they vote the way they campaign, the same as Bush did. Regardless of his personal views, he delivered the same goods on the issues they cared about as Jerry Falwell wouldve, and mightve actually done it better.
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters
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Just looking at some polls. Looks like Rev. Wright is the new Willie Horton.
You couldn't convince America that Obama was a scary black man. They liked him too much. So they found another scary black man.
Man, this stuff is too easy.
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quote: Man, this stuff is too easy.
Yes, when someone screams "I'm a lunatic" from the pulpit, it is very very easy to convince people he is one. |
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters
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And that means ...Obama is a lunatic?
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Hall of Fame Legend
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quote: Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
And that means ...Obama is a lunatic?
No. and you dont think i think so. |
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Hall of Fame Legend
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You brought up candidness. I would like some from Obama. He cant just say, "I didnt know" or "I disagree" and walk away, because this isnt like the farakhan situation. And I'm not alone in thinking so: quote: Originally posted by We need Tom Tupa:
Gerald Posner writing at HuffingtonPost.com:
I'm still in the Barack camp. But, as a vocal supporter, I'd like just a couple of answers about the flap over Reverend Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr, the former pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ, the Chicago megachurch where the Obamas have been members for 20 years.
Guilt by association is totally unwarranted. Barack is not responsible for Wright's views. However, how he responds to those views -- and whether he is being straight with us, the voters -- is critical as to whether he should lead our country.
The key issue for me, as both a supporter and as a reporter, revolves around what I view as Wright's most incendiary comments, those implying that America -- because of its own actions -- deserved the 9/11 terror attacks.
Wright made his comments on September 16, only 5 days after the deadly strikes in New York and Washington. He said, in part, "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye. . . ."
. . . .If the parishioners of Trinity United Church were not buzzing about Reverend Wright's post 9/11 comments, then it could only seem to be because those comments were not out of character with what he preached from the pulpit many times before. In that case, I have to wonder if it is really possible for the Obamas to have been parishioners there -- by 9/11 they were there more than a decade -- and not to have known very clearly how radical Wright's views were. If, on the other hand, parishioners were shocked by Wright's vitriol only days after more than 3,000 Americans had been killed by terrorists, they would have talked about it incessantly. Barack -- a sitting Illinois State Senator -- would have been one of the first to hear about it.
Can't you imagine the call or conversation? "Barack, you aren't going to believe what Revered Wright said yesterday at the church. You should be ready with a comment if someone from the press calls you up."
But Barack now claims he never heard about any of this until after he began his run for the presidency, in February, 2007.
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters
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No, I'm not saying you do. But I'm looking at these polls and they say, at least while the story keeps getting play, that people are going to change their votes over this - even Democrats.
I suspect that we'll see that relax over the next few weeks, but this is the way into Obama's strength. They've found it. No doubt about it.
If I were working a campaign on the other side, I'd be pimping this stuff too.
Let's just see it for what it is, and what it'll become. Because Rev. Wright ain't going anywhere. He's here all the way until November.
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters
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Did you read his statement? You didn't think that was enough?
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I would have a problem with the weight this carried if 1) the "hope" of postracial politics wasnt such an important part of his campaign or 2) he wasnt so close to Rev Wright. But it is and he is.
From what I saw of his statement, he did a good job of condemning the statements, but he claimed ignorance of them. I dont believe him. I really dont believe that he didnt know Rev Wright believed those things and said those things. The fact that he denies it bothers me, and the possibility of what it could mean that he was so close to someone that thought that way makes me wonder about what role views like that may have played in his political past. I'm not assuming there is anything, but I also am not ready to assume there isnt.
So as far as what he should do, he should be honest about this. As far as the politics, it doesnt change anything for me (I wasnt voting for him either way), but I think it will raise some real concerns with his supporters. Like I said before, he came up in Chicago politics; would you be surprised if this isnt the last thing from his recent past that comes back to haunt him?
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters
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So they give this guy a job title that doesn't mean anything and then they fire him ...from the job that doesn't mean anything.
And you're worried about what? How it affects his view on health care policy? His view on the war?
I just don't see any of this guy in Obama, so I'm not worried in the least. And I don't think you see any of this guy in Obama, so I'm wondering why you care so much.
These are campaigns and the media filling the six weeks left they have to go in the campaign, trying to dominate news cycles. I don't know why someone of your heft is really concerned about this.
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Before this broke, I was under the impression that his relationship with Wright was a significant one. Then I watched Wright get cheered for saying what he said. I wonder to myself, "Obama has won multiple elections in districts near there. His relationship to Wright was, no doubt, well known. I wonder if Wright's attitude towards race in America played inot Obama's success there. I wonder if it is more than a coincidence that Mrs. Obama's controversial comments sound like they came from someone in Wright's congregation." It doesnt affect me either way. I will not be voting for Obama either way.
You know as well as I do how many of his supporters care more about "hope" and "change" than they do about health care and the war. That isnt a knock on him, it's the nature of the process. But when you are voting for someone because he represents "unity" and "hope" and whatever else, the fact that someone in his camp starts telling black people to sing "God damn America" for how white people have treated us, you start to second guess yourself, no?
To someone of my "heft", this is pretty meaningless personally. But politically, I understand that many voters arent concerned with "heft", and there is no reason that this shouldnt be just as important as whatever rhetoric worked them into a fainting frenzy at his rally.
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Okay, as long as we're discussing the politics of it, fine. If we're discussing the relevance of these arguments, or the merit of them, I'm sort of scratching my head.
Head over to The Corner today. The politics of it are pretty clear. It's about 70% of the posts in the last week.
They know what works.
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Who's keeping Sharpton and Jackson quiet? We've barely heard a peep from them in weeks despite the fact that this is the most racially charged campaign ever.
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I don't know. I've seen Jesse in a few places, but Al's been pretty quiet.
I don't imagine there's a coordinated effort, which they probably would find offensive and wouldn't listen to anyway. But neither is being officially featured by the campaigns, so you don't see them doing campaign press, which is most of the news.
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Numbers Retired and hangs in the rafters
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Obama's going to deliver a major speech on this business tomorrow.
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Hall of Fame Legend
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quote: Originally posted by We need Tom Tupa:
I really dont believe that he didnt know Rev Wright believed those things and said those things. The fact that he denies it bothers me, and the possibility of what it could mean that he was so close to someone that thought that way makes me wonder about what role views like that may have played in his political past. I'm not assuming there is anything, but I also am not ready to assume there isnt.
So as far as what he should do, he should be honest about this.
This was my biggest concern also. Which is why I brought up the Harry Reid comparison. As in, I think you can't be oblivious to the views of a pastor you've allowed to influence such a large part of your life (for nearly half of it). As for the politics & strategy of hashing & rehashing this, I think it's kind of silly. A lot of pot & kettle. quote: Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
That's your false premise. You're equating his membership in a church that preaches the fairly typical notions (for an urban black church) of black self-determination, empowerment, and paranoia and equate it with white supremacist organizations. They're not the same thing.
Sorry, but that is some creative license you're taking with his statements. There was absolutely none of that in those sermons. The hatred he spewed comes from the same place that David Duke's does. There is no denying that.
The members of Trinity Baptist aren't coming to hang white people from the trees.
They weren't exactly shocked & appalled at what he said either. |
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| Posts: 2310 | Location: Virginia | Registered: Fri August 03 2007 |  |
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