quote:

Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
Sorry Desert, I'm just going by what you said. Now you're saying you didn't say it.

Well, here's what you said: "I just do not want a POTUS that does not support the men and women who have fought and died so that we can grow up in a free country."

You also said "I just have a bad habit of not supporting candidates that show disrespect to the flag that represents the very freedom they take for granted."

What are you basing that on if not the incident in the YouTube?

If you really are taking the issues into account, what made you believe this about Obama?

Did he or did he not refuse to show repsect to the flag?

I didn't see that. So no. I didn't see disrespect for the flag, or the country, or the military.

Where did you see it?

You said he doesn't support the men and women in the military who have died. Where are you getting this?

here is where you are misunderstanding my premise on racism and its relationship to this particular church.

notice "black" self-determination, "black" empowerment. personal human self determination, and personal human empowerment would be the non racist use of those phrases. I know well that a lot of urban churches and organizations use label specific terms with the operative definative word "black".

The use of a definitive term to a race specific to define a race specific goal is racism. This is not an extreme form of racism by any measure and to discredit this form of racism by comparing this to a more extreme expression of racism does not relieve it of the fact that it is racism.
You can argue it can be a form of "contructive" racism, you could even argue that self identification and the extrapolation of equality to other races is healthy.

This church is race inclusive in its goals and have published that. That may not necessarily be an extreme form of racism in fact it is a mild form of group specific beneficiary goals. However racism by its nature grows from these exact same beginnings. The exlusion and race specific goals are racism and are dangerous.

In college I remember joining a petition to outlaw all black greek systems and organizations that have rules that only allow "black" membership as rascism. this is not a new topic to me. I do have a problem with urban churches who are not brought to task for goals that are inclusive and race specific. I find them to be the same as more extreme groups who basic axioms also vent the same basic rhetoric.

I know that a lot of black organizations are paranoid of civil rights problems we had a little as 30 years ago. Truthfully they probably are right to be a bit paranoid because the same power brokers are still operating at some level now. In a few more decades with a newer generation hopefully those fears can recede with the death of that generation who ignorantly practiced extreme racism.

Obama is a member of a church who does practice (very mild) forms of racism. I am not a big fan of those ideals and find them hypocritical to a campaign who runs on unity. For the highest and most powerful position in our government I am going to nitpick and hold every candidate to a higher standard. That being said after you start looking that critically at any of the candidates you are kind of left of a lesser of hypocrits and pr people.

quote:

Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
That's your false premise. You're equating his membership in a church that preaches the fairly typical notions (for an urban black church) of black self-determination, empowerment, and paranoia and equate it with white supremacist organizations. They're not the same thing.

The members of Trinity Baptist aren't coming to hang white people from the trees.

It does not have to be a supremacist org. The fact that he is calling Jesus black kind of leads many to believe he is an anti-Semite.

And just so you know (because you obviously have shown you do not) this guy is KNOWN for his rhetoric against white people.

You call it typical of Urban Churches. Fine. I just don't want that kind of mentality, and those that support it, running my country.

Sorry, I am kind of picky like that.

What's the matter, Heck. All of a sudden you're on the defensive. You're boy is showing serious cracks and you can't take the criticisms.

quote:

Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
I didn't see that. So no. I didn't see disrespect for the flag, or the country, or the military.

Where did you see it?

You said he doesn't support the men and women in the military who have died. Where are you getting this?

What rock did you suddenly crawl out of:



WTF kind of statement is that? You run for POTUS, you better respect the flag - if only for the men and women who have sacrificed their lives for it.

Personally I lost ALL respect for the guy back when this happened. You don't let this bother you.

Like I said, you can stop the campaigning - I am not voting for him.

quote:

Obama is a member of a church who does practice (very mild) forms of racism.

OMG, what a crock.

If a white org/church was accused of "mild form of racism" they would be told racism is racism - there is no room for it ANYWHERE.

LMAO! Jesus man, are you that pussified by PC crowds?

desert when i used the phrase "mild" as it relates to racism that means as it applies to victimizing or differentation by exclusion another party. Nothing to do with "pc" or your more crass term of "pussified".

If you had read my other posts and than you would have noticed that I stated that racism in any form is still racism. It does not matter the level of small, moderate, extreme. It is not acceptable.

Well, I appreciate you making the distinction in degree. This is a pretty mild form of racism. I wouldn't even say "racism" explains it nearly as well as the inevitable circling of the wagons that you see in just about any historically oppressed or disadvantaged groups.

In other words, does it bother you when synagogues preach similar forms of Jewish empowerment and exclusivity? Because they do.

And knowing the answers to these questions, do you then find Obama's speeches to be insincere? Do you think he's making all this unity stuff up, but is really some sort of Afro-centric separatist?

Again, I don't mind that this question is being raised. As you said, candidates should have to answer these questions. I'm all in favor of having the candidates explain what they believe and why.

I just think it's beyond simplistic and self-serving and disingenuous and counter-productive to pretend that this is a real issue, when the whole point of it is to be simplistic and self-serving and disingenuous and counter-productive in order to prey on voter's fears and prejudices in order to sway votes.

Not that I'm surprised, but it's too bad that type of shit gets so much play in here.

Thanks for being honest, Desert. I thought you formed your opinions on sentimental stuff like this and you didn't disappoint.

Heck I hope you can infer from my many posts that I dont condone this sort of behavior from any group.

I do realize that this behavior is normal to any group that has been oppressed like blacks have in this country.

I do find his message to be sincere, his delivery and prose is powerful. I dont know Obama personally and the only information I can garner is usually from the media, his own book, and what I can dig up on him by the internet.

I know and so do you the Republican machine is going to use anything to take away any statistical advantage they can for the primary.

I will tell you as a minority it is inspiring to me and my children that Hillary and Obama are making such a major push toward the presidency. However I still dont know who i am going to vote for. Will I look at this critically and give it some sort of relative weight if he wins the nomination? Probably but it will be a very small amount of influence as a total picture that i can judge him on.

I will admit that this very topic of reverse racism and victim attitude as it reflects on the poor community does irritate me. I dont believe in affirmative action and policies because I believe it demeans me as a human because it is lowering standards based upon race. My own hard work and intellect qualify or disqualify me equally to any university or job. The Naacp and some other civil rights organizations I believe that practice very similar views as Obama's church by specifically defining humans into groups thereby lessening our equal status pisses me off. I dont think Obama is a "racist" or his wife but I would be willing to look a little closer because of this church.

I'm fine with all of that. Investigate away. That's your job as a citizen.

quote:

Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
Thanks for being honest, Desert. I thought you formed your opinions on sentimental stuff like this and you didn't disappoint.

And you're forming an opinion of the guy based on what he tells you, and not what he has done.

Yes, I listen to what the candidates are saying. More importantly, I look at their platforms. I look at what their policy proposals are. I look at the people they surround themselves with in the campaign and as advisors. And yes, I look at what he's done in the past. I weigh that against how effective a politician I think he or she would be, the likelihood of them winning the general election, their vision for the future, their possible Supreme Court appointments, their temperament.

You're looking his hand placement, and his pin selection.

That's fine. It's just that you said it, then said no, no, you really look at the issues, then admitted that his hand placement was a horrible affront to America and all that have served her (??) and that was a deal breaker for you.

Just don't ask me to take you seriously. That's not a very serious position.

It may be yours. It's obviously going to influence your vote. And that's your right.

I just think it's so laughable. The idea that out of everything that is happening in the world this picture is what's giving you fits just confirms my experience that the base of the Republican Party is overly-influenced by any form of patriotic sentiment. You're flag hags.

When Obama said he didn't wear the flag pin he thought it had become "a substitute for true patriotism", I thought, "Finally, someone giving us some straight talk." Flag pins are not important. They're symbols.

You hear him say that and you go crazy.

You look at this picture and see disrespect, like he was grabbing his balls and giving the finger during the anthem.

This is all so stupid. So stupid it makes my brain hurt.

There you go, campaigning for the guy again.

Don't get your little leftist feelings hurt because I do not like the same candidate you do. You're getting very defensive about the guy and I would not be surprised if you want to deep throat him.

Obama is not electable to me for a variety of reason - you're trying to take my words out of context to make me look less the intelligent.

LOL.....you may find this surprising but your opinion does not matter to me, Heck. You're just too biased to matter to me.

You think I get upset when someone whose #1 issue is a flag pin is not on my side?

PS - When you quote someone in full, you're not taking them out of context. You're just embarrassed by what you said.

Rightly, I'd say.

And now that you've started calling me gay, we know we've reached the end of a Republican's argument.

Flags and gay bashing. Delightful.

Where did I say that the #1 reason I wasn't voting for Obama was because flag pin or a flag issue?? Please show me.

You have a very wierd way of spinning things into what you want to believe - mch like the way you view candidates and those who don't support yours.

quote:

Originally posted by sevknowsbetter:
If you had read my other posts and than you would have noticed that I stated that racism in any form is still racism. It does not matter the level of small, moderate, extreme. It is not acceptable.

If it is not acceptable, then what is a potential POTUS doing hanging around that place for the last 20 years, and why is he only now distancing himself from the comments made by his spriitual mentor?

You mentioned three things: the flag pin, his hand placement, and his inexperience, and you incorrectly note that he's done nothing at all.

What am I supposed to think, you're a genius?

quote:

Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
his inexperience, and you incorrectly note that he's done nothing at all.

I am all ears. Seriously.

And don't reference past candidates - just tell me what he has done.

quote:

What am I supposed to think, you're a genius?

You keep referring to what you think about me, and I keep telling you I am not interested in what you think of me.

No need to attack me personally for political views, but then of course I can sense your frustration in not being able to defend you own views.

Certainly his relative inexperience is a legitimate knock on his candidacy. But saying he's done nothing at all is just a know-nothing attack.

We've also discussed this before in another thread. In fact, you were in on that thread.

http://thebrownsboard.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3656077115/m/3511014425/p/1