Not too long ago, Steve was out claiming that Obama was an empty suit. His evidence? His speeches.

Yes, yes, I know. It doesn't make any sense. And of course, this ignores that Obama has loads of policy knowledge and detailed policy positions on just about every issue, but hey! He's a Democrat, so he must be an empty suit, right?

Well, yesterday Mike Huckabee suggested that Saddam may have really had WMDs when we invaded, but perhaps they were moved to Jordan shortly before the invasion. In fact, he said there's a "good chance" that they were moved to Jordan. And he suggested this not once, but twice, so he wasn't misspeaking.

Okay, Jordan is a US ally. There's absolutely no way Hussein moved his supposed WMD arsenal into Jordan. This is such a stupid suggestion I'm surprised it didn't come from Cal.

If he really wanted to make shit up, he'd say they were moved to Syria. There's no evidence of that at all, and it's just a loony right-wing fantasy. But at least he'd have the country right!

And oh yeah, Huckabee also doesn't believe in evolution.

Nice guy, though. Great sense of humor.

But clearly, Barack Obama is the empty suit.

Up is also down.

Oh, take it easy on Huck. It's a complicated matter; ever since civilization first developed in Mesopotamia around, oh, 1,500 years ago, it's been a hotbed of controversy. One can hardly fault a guy for getting his countries messed up. I mean, nobody would be stupid enough to invade the wrong country based on botched intelligence...right?

Dennis
Besides, he wouldn't have to send in the Marines or anything; he could always send in his buddy Chuck Norris to clean things up.

Hey, some of us will believe that 700,000-1.3 million civilians have been killed in Iraq (despite no evidence - but the bodies are there we just haven't found them - trust us).

What is so far-fetched about believing that WMDs were moved to another country - even Jordan?

One loony fantasy to another.

I'm happy that you have so much firsthand knowledge that you can unequivocally state that there is NO WAY Jordan anything ever made it into Jordan. After all, Jordan and it's leaders would ALWAYS tell us what is going on in country, and they have never been allies to Saddam Hussein.

Hey, heckofajobbrownie said it, so it must be true.

And your evidence for this is...

And Huckabee's evidence for this is...

Seems all you have is to be upset at me for pointing it out. And that's not much.

You are aware that we've established that Hussein's WMD programs were halted and that's why there were no WMDs in Iraq, right?

Do you realize that the White House has long since admitted as much?

What world are you living in?

Get upset at me all you want, pal. Doesn't bother me any. But it also doesn't make you sound like less of a fool.

Did I lay claim to the fact he had produced new weapons?

What is your point? You wanted to point out 'Huckabee is an idiot'.

I just wanted to point out that most liberals are idiots and have JUST as large a fantasy, among others.

Just keeping it fresh, that's all. Although I REALLY do like you confidently stating that you know what Saddam did and didn't do.

Well, with regard to his WMDs, we do know what he did and didn't do.

Or maybe they've gotten to me, too...

They have. I wouldn't answer the door, they're on their way.

As for Huckabee, the point isn't to say that he's an idiot, though his stance on evolution certainly points to a lack of intellectual curiosity that is a bit frightening in a boss, never mind a presidential candidate.

The point is that he lacks the basic foreign policy knowledge required of a presidential candidate. In fact, he doesn't even seem to be following the news.

Of course, sometimes these guys say things just for public consumption, but don't believe them.

But I don't think that's what's going on here. He really doesn't believe in evolution. And he really doesn't know anything about foreign policy.

quote:

Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
But I don't think that's what's going on here. He really doesn't believe in evolution. And he really doesn't know anything about foreign policy.

And that's why he really has $8.17 left in his campaign account.

Yeah, you're right. The Republican base is too smart to nominate a guy who doesn't know anything about foreign policy. That would never happen.

Oh, wait...

So what you mean is the Republican party would never nominate someone who doesn't agree with the liberal's idea of 'Foreign Policy'

(which consists mostly of appease, appease, appease, send in some troops at the behest of the UN but only arm them with AirSoft rifles and tell them not to shoot; surrender, spin it in the media as 'success').

Try to keep up here.

That was Tupa saying that the reason Huckabee is running third now is because Republican primary voters have recognized that he's not a heavyweight.

And me pointing out that they twice elected a guy who knew just as little about foreign policy as Huckabee did.

If that's even possible.

Timeline: Iraq
A chronology of key events:
1920 25 April - Iraq is placed under British mandate

1921 23 August - Faysal, son of Hussein Bin Ali, the Sharif of Mecca, is crowned Iraq's first king.

1932 3 October - Iraq becomes an independent state.

1958 14 July - The monarchy is overthrown in a military coup led by Brig Abd-al-Karim Qasim and Col Abd-al-Salam Muhammad Arif. Iraq is declared a republic and Qasim becomes prime minister.

1963 8 February - Qasim is ousted in a coup led by the Arab Socialist Baath Party (ASBP). Arif becomes president.

1963 18 November - The Baathist government is overthrown by Arif and a group of officers.

1966 17 April - After Arif is killed in a helicopter crash on 13 April, his elder brother, Maj-Gen Abd-al-Rahman Muhammad Arif, succeeds him as president.

1968 17 July - A Baathist led-coup ousts Arif and Gen Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr becomes president.

1970 11 March - The Revolution Command Council (RCC) and Mullah Mustafa Barzani, leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), sign a peace agreement.

1972 - A 15-year Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation is signed between Iraq and the Soviet Union.
Petroleum firm nationalised

1972 - Iraq nationalises the Iraq Petroleum Company (IPC).

1974 - In implementation of the 1970 agreement, Iraq grants limited autonomy to the Kurds but the KDP rejects it.

1975 March - At a meeting of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) in Algiers, Iraq and Iran sign a treaty ending their border disputes.

1979 16 July - President Al-Bakr resigns and is succeeded by Vice-President Saddam Hussein.

1980 1 April - The pro-Iranian Dawah Party claims responsibility for an attack on Deputy Prime Minister, Tariq Aziz, at Mustansiriyah University, Baghdad.

Iran-Iraq war
1980 4 September - Iran shells Iraqi border towns (Iraq considers this as the start of the Iran/Iraq war).

1980 17 September - Iraq abrogates the 1975 treaty with Iran.

1980 22 September - Iraq attacks Iranian air bases.

1980 23 September - Iran bombs Iraqi military and economic targets.

1981 7 June - Israel attacks an Iraqi nuclear research centre at Tuwaythah near Baghdad.

Chemical attack on Kurds
1988 16 March - Iraq is said to have used chemical weapons against the Kurdish town of Halabjah.

1988 20 August - A ceasefire comes into effect to be monitored by the UN Iran-Iraq Military Observer Group (Uniimog).

1990 15 March - Farzad Bazoft, an Iranian-born journalist with
London's Observer newspaper, accused of spying on a military installation, is hanged in Baghdad.

Iraq invades Kuwait
1990 2 August - Iraq invades Kuwait and is condemned by United Nations Security Council (UNSC) Resolution 660 which calls for full withdrawal.

1990 6 August - UNSC Resolution 661 imposes economic sanctions on Iraq.

1990 8 August - Iraq announces the merger of Iraq and Kuwait.

1990 29 November - UNSC Resolution 678 authorizes the states cooperating with Kuwait to use "all necessary means" to uphold UNSC Resolution 660.

1991 16 -17 January - The Gulf War starts when the coalition forces begin aerial bombing of Iraq ("Operation Desert Storm").

1991 13 February - US planes destroy an air raid shelter at Amiriyah in Baghdad, killing more than 300 people.

1991 24 February - The start of a ground operation which results in the liberation of Kuwait on 27 February.

Ceasefire
1991 3 March - Iraq accepts the terms of a ceasefire.

1991 Mid-March/early April - Iraqi forces suppress rebellions in the south and the north of the country.

1991 8 April - A plan to establish a UN safe-haven in northern Iraq to protect the Kurds is approved at a European Union meeting. On 10 April the USA orders Iraq to end all military activity in this area.
1992 26 August - A no-fly zone, which Iraqi planes are not allowed to enter, is set up in southern Iraq, south of latitude 32 degrees north.
1993 27 June - US forces launch a cruise missile attack on Iraqi intelligence headquarters in Baghdad in retaliation for the attempted assassination of US President George Bush in Kuwait in April.

1994 29 May - Saddam Hussein becomes prime minister.

1994 10 November - Iraqi National Assembly recognises Kuwait's borders and its independence.

Oil-for-food
1995 14 April - UNSC Resolution 986 allows the partial resumption of Iraq's oil exports to buy food and medicine ( the "oil-for-food programme"). It is not accepted by Iraq until May 1996 and is not implemented until December 1996.

1995 August - Saddam Hussein's son-in-law, Gen Hussein Kamil Hasan al-Majid, his brother and their families leave Iraq and are granted asylum in Jordan.

1995 15 October - Saddam Hussein wins a referendum allowing him to remain president for another seven years.

1996 20 February - Hussein Kamil Hasan al-Majid and his brother, promised a pardon by Saddam Hussein, return to Baghdad and are killed on 23 February.

1996 31 August - After call for aid from KDP, Iraqi forces launch offensive into northern no-fly zone and capture Irbil.

1996 3 September - US extends northern limit of southern no-fly zone to latitude 33 degrees north, just south of Baghdad.

1996 12 December - Saddam Hussein's elder son, Uday, is seriously wounded in an assassination attempt in Baghdad.

1998 31 October - Iraq ends cooperation with UN Special Commission to Oversee the Destruction of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction (Unscom).

Operation Desert Fox
1998 16-19 December - After UN staff are evacuated from Baghdad, the US and UK launch a bombing campaign, "Operation Desert Fox", to destroy Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programmes.

1999 19 February - Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, spiritual leader of the Shia community, is assassinated in Najaf.

1999 17 December - UNSC Resolution 1284 creates the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (Unmovic) to replace Unscom. Iraq rejects the resolution.

2001 February - Britain, US carry out bombing raids to try to disable Iraq's air defence network. The bombings have little international support.

2001 May - Saddam's son Qusay elected to the leadership of the ruling Baath Party, fuelling speculation that he's being groomed to succeed his father.

2002 April - Baghdad suspends oil exports to protest against Israeli incursions into Palestinian territories. Despite calls by Saddam Hussein, no other Arab countries follow suit. Exports resume after 30 days.

Weapons inspectors return
2002 September - US President George W Bush tells sceptical world leaders at a UN General Assembly session to confront the "grave and gathering danger" of Iraq - or stand aside as the US acts. In the same month British Prime Minister Tony Blair publishes a dossier on Iraq's military capability.

2002 November - UN weapons inspectors return to Iraq backed by a UN resolution which threatens serious consequences if Iraq is in "material breach" of its terms.

2003 March - Chief weapons inspector Hans Blix reports that Iraq has accelerated its cooperation but says inspectors need more time to verify Iraq's compliance.
Saddam ousted

2003 17 March - UK's ambassador to the UN says the diplomatic process on Iraq has ended; arms inspectors evacuate; US President George W Bush gives Saddam Hussein and his sons 48 hours to leave Iraq or face war.

2003 20 March - American missiles hit targets in Baghdad, marking the start of a US-led campaign to topple Saddam Hussein. In the following days US and British ground troops enter Iraq from the south.

2003 9 April - US forces advance into central Baghdad. Saddam Hussein's grip on the city is broken. In the following days Kurdish fighters and US forces take control of the northern cities of Kirkuk and Mosul. There is looting in Baghdad and elsewhere.

2003 April - US lists 55 most-wanted members of former regime in the form of a deck of cards. Former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz is taken into custody.

2003 May - UN Security Council backs US-led administration in Iraq and lifts economic sanctions. US administrator abolishes Baath Party and institutions of former regime.

2003 July - US-appointed Governing Council meets for first time. Commander of US forces says his troops face low-intensity guerrilla-style war. Saddam's sons Uday and Qusay killed in gun battle in Mosul.

Insurgency intensifies
2003 August - Deadly bomb attacks on Jordanian embassy and UN HQ in Baghdad. Saddam's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, or Chemical Ali, captured. Car bomb in Najaf kills 125 including Shia leader
Ayatollah Mohammed Baqr al-Hakim.

2003 14 December - Saddam Hussein captured in Tikrit.

2004 February - More than 100 killed in Irbil in suicide attacks on offices of main Kurdish factions.

2004 March - Suicide bombers attack Shia festival-goers in Karbala and Baghdad, killing 140 people.

2004 April-May - Shia militias loyal to radical cleric Moqtada Sadr take on coalition forces.
Hundreds are reported killed in fighting during the month-long US military siege of the Sunni Muslim city of Falluja.
Photographic evidence emerges of abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US troops.

Sovereignty and elections
2004 June - US hands sovereignty to interim government headed by Prime Minister Iyad Allawi.
Saddam Hussein transferred to Iraqi legal custody.

2004 August - Fighting in Najaf between US forces and Shia militia of radical cleric Moqtada Sadr.

2004 November - Major US-led offensive against insurgents in Falluja.

2005 30 January - An estimated eight million people vote in elections for a Transitional National Assembly. The Shia United Iraqi Alliance wins a majority of assembly seats. Kurdish parties come second.

2005 28 February - At least 114 people are killed by a massive car bomb in Hilla, south of Baghdad. It is the worst single such incident since the US-led invasion.

2005 April - Amid escalating violence, parliament selects Kurdish leader Jalal Talabani as president. Ibrahim Jaafari, a Shia, is named as prime minister.

2005 May onwards - Surge in car bombings, bomb explosions and shootings: Iraqi ministries put the civilian death toll for May at 672, up from 364 in April.

2005 June - Massoud Barzani is sworn in as regional president of Iraqi Kurdistan.

2005 July - Study compiled by the non-governmental Iraq Body Count organisation estimates that nearly 25,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the 2003 US-led invasion.

2005 August - Draft constitution is endorsed by Shia and Kurdish negotiators, but not by Sunni representatives.
More than 1,000 people are killed during a stampede at a Shia ceremony in Baghdad.

2005 September - 182 people are killed in attacks in Baghdad, including a car bomb attack on a group of workers in a mainly-
Shia district.

Saddam on trial
2005 October - Saddam Hussein goes on trial on charges of crimes against humanity.
Voters approve a new constitution, which aims to create an Islamic federal democracy.

2005 15 December - Iraqis vote for the first, full-term government and parliament since the US-led invasion.

2006 20 January - Shia-led United Iraqi Alliance emerges as the winner of December's parliamentary elections, but fails to gain an absolute majority.

Sectarian violence
2006 February onwards - A bomb attack on an important Shia shrine in Samarra unleashes a wave of sectarian violence in which hundreds of people are killed.

2006 22 April - Newly re-elected President Talabani asks Shia compromise candidate Jawad al-Maliki to form a new government. The move ends four months of political deadlock

2006 May and June - An average of more than 100 civilians per
day are killed in violence in Iraq, the UN says.

2006 7 June - Al-Qaeda leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, is killed in an air strike.

2006 September - A much-anticipated ceremony to transfer operational command from US-led forces to Iraq's new army is postponed.

2006 November - Saddam Hussein is found guilty of crimes against humanity and sentenced to death.
Iraq and Syria restore diplomatic relations after nearly a quarter century.
More than 200 die in car bombings in the mostly Shia area of Sadr City in Baghdad. An indefinite curfew is imposed after what is considered the worst attack on the capital since the US-led invasion of 2003.

2006 December - Iraq Study Group report making recommendations to President Bush on future policy in Iraq describes the situation as grave and deteriorating. It warns of the prospect of a slide towards chaos, triggering the collapse of the government and a humanitarian catastrophe.
Saddam executed

2006 30 December - Saddam Hussein is executed by hanging

2007 January - US President Bush announces a new Iraq strategy; thousands more US troops will be dispatched to shore up security in Baghdad.
Barzan Ibrahim - Saddam Hussein's half-brother - and Awad Hamed al-Bandar, former head of the Revolutionary Court, are executed by hanging.
UN says more than 34,000 civilians were killed in violence during 2006; the figure surpasses official Iraqi estimates threefold.

2007 February - A bomb in Baghdad's Sadriya market kills more than 130 people. It is the worst single bombing since 2003.

2007 March - Insurgents detonate three trucks with toxic chlorine gas in Falluja and Ramadi, injuring hundreds.
Former Vice-President Taha Yassin Ramadan is executed on the fourth anniversary of the US-led invasion.

2007 12 April - A bomb blast rocks parliament, killing an MP.

18 April - Bombings in Baghdad kill nearly 200 people in the worst day of violence since a US-led security drive began in the capital in February.

2007 May - The leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Ayyub al-Masri, is reported killed.

2007 July - President Bush says there's been only limited military and political progress in Iraq following his decision to reinforce US troops levels there.

2007 August - The main Sunni Arab political bloc in Iraq, the Iraqi Accordance Front, withdraws from the cabinet, plunging the government into crisis.
Truck and car bombs hit two villages of Yazidi Kurds, killing at least 250 people - the deadliest attack since 2003.
Kurdish and Shia leaders form an alliance to support Prime Minister Maliki's government but fail to bring in Sunni leaders.

2007 September - Controversy over private security contractors after Blackwater security guards allegedly fire at civilians, killing 17.

2007 October - Turkish parliament gives go-ahead for military operations in Iraq in pursuit of Kurdish rebels. Turkey comes under international pressure to avoid an invasion.
The number of violent civilian and military deaths continues to drop, as does the frequency of rocket attacks.
Karbala, the mainly Shia province, becomes the 18th province to be transferred to local control.

2007 December - Turkey launches an air raid on fighters from the Kurdish PKK movement inside Iraq.
Britain hands over security of Basra province to Iraqi forces, effectively marking the end of nearly five years of British control of southern Iraq.

2008 January - Parliament passes legislation allowing former officials from Saddam Hussein's Baath party to return to public life.

Now exactly when was this place at peace? Please explain how Bush started this whole mess? I think we had a couple of Dems in office during this whole thing. It is all not pretty and mistakes have been made. But to lay this whole thing on Bush is ignorant.

Oh wait most of your reasoning is.

quote:

Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
Try to keep up here.

That was Tupa saying that the reason Huckabee is running third now is because Republican primary voters have recognized that he's not a heavyweight.

And me pointing out that they twice elected a guy who knew just as little about foreign policy as Huckabee did.

If that's even possible.

Not very good with sarcasm or irony are you?

I know EXACTLY what you meant. Like most liberals, you just resort to name-calling. I can do that, too.

Nav - the place will be at peace once the Israeli's turn that area into a glass factory.

You can't even follow what we're talking about. You're the new Cal. Maybe you're the old Cal with a new name. Who knows?

We're talking about which candidates were well-versed in foreign policy matters. You're talking about the history of Iraq. Don't blame me because you can't follow what we're talking about.

Mike Huckabee has virtually no knowledge of foreign policy issues. George W. Bush had virtually no foreign policy knowledge issues when he ran for president.

You're arguing something else entirely. Which is why it was a lot easier to follow these threads and have an interesting discussion before you started posting here.

"Well considering I have yet to hear when iteligent thing from you..."

I couldn't have spelled it better myself.

quote:

Originally posted by heckofajobBrownie:
Not too long ago, Steve was out claiming that Obama was an empty suit. His evidence? His speeches.

Yes, yes, I know. It doesn't make any sense. And of course, this ignores that Obama has loads of policy knowledge and detailed policy positions on just about every issue, but hey! He's a Democrat, so he must be an empty suit, right?

Well, yesterday Mike Huckabee suggested that Saddam may have really had WMDs when we invaded, but perhaps they were moved to Jordan shortly before the invasion. In fact, he said there's a "good chance" that they were moved to Jordan. And he suggested this not once, but twice, so he wasn't misspeaking.

Okay, Jordan is a US ally. There's absolutely no way Hussein moved his supposed WMD arsenal into Jordan. This is such a stupid suggestion I'm surprised it didn't come from Cal.

If he really wanted to make shit up, he'd say they were moved to Syria. There's no evidence of that at all, and it's just a loony right-wing fantasy. But at least he'd have the country right!

And oh yeah, Huckabee also doesn't believe in evolution.

Nice guy, though. Great sense of humor.

But clearly, Barack Obama is the empty suit.

Up is also down.

Great post Brownie. Witty too. The Syria stuff has been around a long time and is the current excuse as to where the WMD went.

I find it funny that the thousands of overflights and satellite imagery in the days running up to the war never saw a thing. Better than that is Saddam (who never thought we were going blow up the capital of Iraq)had the foresight to ship all the WMD to Syria and then dig a hole for him to hide in right outside Baghdad.

This stuff ia always funny making up a lie to cover up a lie.

As far as Huckabee what he said is scary for two reasons. First he is showing to be a political lightweight in world affairs and second which is way worse he just painted another target.

Bombing Syria is piece of cake insead of Iran

His comment rivals Reagan's answer the question of what happens in we accidently launch a ballistic missile strike on the Soviets. His answer call the missiles back.

He won, so Huckabee may be on to something here

Ouch.

Guys, it's fine to disagree with Heck, but you better do your homework first. Copy and pasting, uhm... whatever that was? Doesn't count.

We elected the most unfit president in history... twice. There's no escaping it. No forgiving it. No washing it away. And we invaded a country that had never attacked us and didn't have the ability to attack us, essentially deleting the country, spinning it into chaos, and trading in a paper tiger for a truly enormous quagmire/cluster**** of a problem.

It is what it is. Trying to pretend it's something else so you can sleep better isn't going to change anything. That's between you and you. No need to share it.

But I hear Republicans are good for the economy. Uh... yeah. I can see that.