The 'Who you watching?' 2020 thread.

Becton vs Clemson.... Bonus clip.. Becton & Simmons 2019 viewing... in the ACC, Clemson has owned the Cardinals even with Lamar..

       Confirming Tour nailed post above on Becton.. don't have time to timeline this,(post combine, back to a thing called a job) but it all shows up in here... as expected..Well done, Tour ! His size will sell.. but will the money & coaching motivate him at the next level?.. that's why we pay guys like Callahan to sway Berry's choice... 

6 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 

• Head... real question marks here. Just watched a draw play over RG... Mekhi releases to second level and ends up face-to-face with ND's Edge/LB prospect, Julian Okwara. with a couple yards separating them. And what does Mekhi do? Turns his back to Okwara to watch the run to completion. Care to guess who made the tackle? Yup... Okwara ran it down.

Not going to go back and verify, but writing the last note made me realize that UL did not run to Becton's side... honestly I cannot recall a single play. They did play action to his side a fair amount in a wide ZBS look, but the QB always bootlegged to the right. UL not running behind their biggest OL is a red flag.

I felt like l had read something to the effect that Becton wasn’t the most reliable next level blocker. These quoted points touch on it. I’m curious if it looked like U of L asked him to do much blocking at the second level or did he mostly stick around the LOS? 

I was more impressed with slowness of foot movement in some of the drills with Becton. And yet some of the newest post combine mocks have him going to us or someone higher on the food chain. I just don't see what they see other than the size. People like Garrett, Clowney, etc with speed and bend will blow right by him IMO. I'd go with Thomas or Wills before Becton if all 3 are still there @ #10. I would not want Becton protecting the blind side. Broken QB by game 4.

4 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

I felt like l had read something to the effect that Becton wasn’t the most reliable next level blocker. These quoted points touch on it. I’m curious if it looked like U of L asked him to do much blocking at the second level or did he mostly stick around the LOS? 

Since they tended to run away from him, when the runs away were ZBS, then Becton released to block for any cutbacks. Can't recall him actually executing any.

2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I was more impressed with slowness of foot movement in some of the drills with Becton. And yet some of the newest post combine mocks have him going to us or someone higher on the food chain. I just don't see what they see other than the size. People like Garrett, Clowney, etc with speed and bend will blow right by him IMO. I'd go with Thomas or Wills before Becton if all 3 are still there @ #10. I would not want Becton protecting the blind side. Broken QB by game 4.

If slow feet impress you, then I'm your guy...

I think Becton would smother most wide rushes, but anyone with a secondary move inside would beat him badly after selling the outside threat.

12 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Since they tended to run away from him, when the runs away were ZBS, then Becton released to block for any cutbacks. Can't recall him actually executing any.

If slow feet impress you, then I'm your guy...

I think Becton would smother most wide rushes, but anyone with a secondary move inside would beat him badly after selling the outside threat.

I agree. His change of direction in the drills I saw was horrible. Too much mass moving one way and not enough power to shift it the reverse direction quickly. I'm not even sure he can get to the wide running fast guys with quick getoff. I just can't see us taking him unless Thomas and Wills are already taken. With Becton I can see a lot of "leaning" OL movement calls on him when matched against quickness & speed if he gets beaten badly a couple of times.

I'm watching 4 different games of this kid and I want to see who else notices some of the finer points in this particular play.  Call this a football social experiment.  Go to 0:41 seconds in this clip.  Stop, take in the offensive formation, down & distance and the player we're obviously watching (Chinn).  Playing as the "SS" here.   Let that play run and tell me what YOU see in those little details.      Because right there gives me a TON of information.  Enough that, after only watching one other cutup of his and now less than a minute into this one, I can safely say that despite the play being completed away from him, I think this kid is the better small school prospect than Dugger.       

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

 Stop, take in the offensive formation, down & distance and the player we're obviously watching (Chinn).  Playing as the "SS" here.   Let that play run and tell me what YOU see in those little details.      Because right there gives me a TON of information.  Enough that, after only watching one other cutup of his and now less than a minute into this one, I can safely say that despite the play being completed away from him, I think this kid is the better small school prospect than Dugger.       

In non-DB gibber jabber 🙃, a) i see a well coached safety that can trust his back petal & chooses not to turn his back from QB nor a dual Wr's high go routes.. (can open hips on go routes too) b) seeing the play in front of him, allows Chinn to split & top zone both WR's putting himself in position to attack the football at either wide-out.. c) he gives the duals a peek, (might be well tape prepared on opponent) but the eyes than target back at the QB (as they should).. 

Edit-- Does Chinn do Punt returns such as Dugger? either way, Am going to be a tough sell off my Carolina kid..and when i hear deion sanders say 'that is one thick dude" He really is.. than combining Duggers wingspan.. I'll be a homer.. following Dugger, no matter where he ends up.. i know me   

23 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

In non-DB gibber jabber 🙃, a) i see a well coached safety that can trust his back petal & chooses not to turn his back from QB nor a dual Wr's high go routes.. (can open hips on go routes too) b) seeing the play in front of him, allows Chinn to split & top zone both WR's putting himself in position to attack the football at either wide-out.. c) he gives the duals a peek, (might be well tape prepared on opponent) but the eyes than target back at the QB (as they should).. 

Edit-- Does Chinn do Punt returns such as Dugger? either way, Am going to be a tough sell off my Carolina kid..and when i hear deion sanders say 'that is one thick dude" He really is.. than combining Duggers wingspan.. I'll be a homer.. following Dugger, no matter where he ends up.. i know me   

Good starts here, picking up some of the finer points and things I noticed.

It's a favorable down and distance, showing a formation YSU likes to run their inside zone from, while the defense shows splits and box defender depth that would normally invite run.     Chinn does a good job keying the RT for pass.  He's already sinking his weight and starting his back peddle before the RT has taken 2 full steps in his drop.  So he's not showing a tendency to 'lean in' too far against the run despite being the last line of defense to the formation strength.   

When he begins moving back, peep his eyes - he reads from #1 to #2 real fast.    Now against man coverage I wouldn't do that myself but the corner to his side is either peeking WAY to much or playing a hard trail.  Other option being a flipped cover 3 with a man combo or "Cover 3 lock" for some. It's a pretty odd look but nothing unheard of.       But what I like from his eyes here is that he sees the #1 immediately pressing vertical and, while staying square and working his back peddle, gets depth AND width - knowing his slot defender is playing inside leverage to cut off the deep over.   So what he's looking for here is vertical and then staying square enough plant, drive and close on anything that breaks in front of him.   THAT is a great start to show how you leverage route concepts vs the coverage call.

This is a very solid foundation to playing safety effectively.   The worst thing you can be is a complete and total liability back there.  Might as well have 10 men on the field.  

Now I wouldn't put him as my center field most of the time in the NFL as a rookie.   He still needs work and time to get to game speed.    But he is showing to be more than competent enough with his eyes and mind, tossed in the fact he's a great athlete, to believe that there might be a solid future ahead of him. He doesn't play flat footed so often that would panic me, and he has shown some real ability to actually understand what is unfolding both infront of and behind him.  There's another play in that same clip at the 1:50 mark.   The strong side safety plants his ass outside the tackle, takes on the lead back and fights through to get to the ball carrier for 4 yards.  THAT is a role this kid, at a 6'3 220lbs, is built to excel at with early playing time.  

I'll tag you in Cal's thread when I'm finished up with Dugger since that is your dude as well. 

Well I flunked that test...

Nice Combine for the kid

On 3/3/2020 at 9:48 PM, Tour2ma said:

Well I flunked that test...

Nice Combine for the kid

Not so much a test.  Just wanting to find out if people are seeing similar things.

Back to Becton for me.

@ 1:14    Uh, Whuuuut?   The hell kind of chop is that?

@ 1:47   Another piss poor chop.

@ 2:50  Good pick up on the stunt.  But poorly played by ND on timing.

@ 3:46  lets go 3 for 3 on trash can chops.

@ 4:14   Just when you think things couldn't get any choppier, he proves you wrong.

@ 4:25  Missed assignment on the 5th man pressure.  Eyes? Where?

@ 4:37  This was a theme and reminded me of Wirfs.  He gets to the second level and looks just completely lost at times?

Strange that when Lville boots or rolls the pocket, they always roll away from him.

@ 6:50  Louisville can call Thomas "weak"...  but what the hell is that?  You let the man get into your chest and up under you.  Zero punch until the edge is already in his chest.

@ 7:32  Finally gets attacked by speed with the ND edge rushers pin their ears back.   Not the best look seeing as how it was about the first time all night he was without a slide protect or chip help and had to one on one.

He really didn't have a lot of looks to be exposed on in the Cards game plan.   But there are issues his size presents that his punch should help solve, but too many times he lets the edge into his chest and plays high.   Him being a pretty big waist bender is certainly no help.

Needs only a bump post, but If your looking for some Pro Day Updates click here>> https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/nfl-draft-pro-day-results-2020  updates daily   

@ 1:03

Interesting look.  Showing man zero pressure but rotating out to a cover 2 with a strong side rotation. Chinn ends up as the "MIKE".  He sees the #2 to the weak side driving up field, but his eyes get caught  with the delay release on the HB which would have been the OLB to that sides job to take. 

Can't fall for the cheese when you're the man playing the low hole.

@ 1:47

Dropping under into a spot zone.  SDSU went with this look early to the #3 and won.  You have to remember as a DB, when you're playing zone, the WR is still going to read your leverage and work his his route stem off that.  Your help was to the inside so you should favor driving to your outside shoulder.  Instead he steps down too far and takes a poor angle recovering.

@2:40

Great recovery speed.  He's 2 yards behind the LOS and gets in to make a tackle on the RB downfield. Saw some similar things in coverage vs YSU.   Good closing burst to limit damage.

@ 3:05

More great closing speed on the delayed pressure.  The kid has a knack for getting home when SIU actually does decide to turn him loose. 

@ 3:26 is a great example of situational awareness and coaching.

SDSU had their receivers to Chinns side literally avoid putting any block on the CB.  Instead they would run straight for Chinn and attempt to seal him inside while they took their chances bouncing things out and letting the corners play contain.

- Situational awareness.    The last thing you want to do here is take a back step(s).   Before the snap, JC is already back on his weight getting ready to drop.
You play the run HARD 99.9999999% of the time in this type of moment.   Less than a minute before the half, tie ball game, opponent on their own goal line. 
This is the offense looking for nothing more than preventing something stupid like a safety, killing the clock and getting to half time in an even game.

Instead he has taken 4 big missteps that, if played correctly between depth of alignment and cleaning up the footwork, would have allowed him to attack faster downhill be the run force..  That's a 'Y-Y' look to his side.  Two TE's, homie.  The ball is coming that way and you HAVE to be ready.  Hell, if those 3 or 4 steps weren't fucked up, he might have actually had a shot at coming down the alley and actually forcing the safety.

But this awareness isn't limited to just him.   As the CB you have to know the gameplan was to neutralize the defenses best player.  Getting a hat on the best tackler is priority #1 for any rushing attack. This wasn't something SDSU just decided to do either.   There were half a dozen other snaps with the same look sealing him inside and causing a traffic jam against lateral pursuit.  Instead? The corner follows  too high and too intent on his man, walks right into the wash and loses his contain late. 

@ 3:38

I do like some of the mental work here from a 3 deep shell.  JC is playing the #2 on the out while the #1 runs a clearout (go)  The #2 dropping so shallow to the field side is cheese.  SDSU WANTS the DB to attack it. Why?  Check out at the top of the screen...  A deep 'over' coming from the #2 to the opposite side of the field.     That's who this play is intended for.  And too his credit, Chinn doesn't get sucked up by the action  in front of him.  He knows the offense wants to force the ball downfield and he sees the route coming.    That's good work between the ears.

@ 4:07

For a counter point to why I like JC's eyes and mind work, flip to there.   Almost the exact similiar play in terms of route structure from SDSU.  This is how they prefer to attack a 3 deep look. Starting from the top (boundary) the #1 is running the clearout (go) and the #2 is the back who releases late to the flat.      The #2 (slot) from the field is crossing on the deep over. 

And if you pause @ 4:12.  It's there...  well, it's going to be there.  The CB sees the late release from the back and is beginning to step down to take it. Voiding a LARGE zone for the QB. The only thing that saved this from being a big completion was the pressure from the SIU Dline.   Chinn had the awareness to not committ so hard downhill because, through a combination of preperation and play sense, knew their  was a deeper developing route behind him.      

@ 4:59 

For my knock on him at the goal line run towards the end of the 1st half, to his credit, the kid didn't make the same mistake again.  Another Y-Y look to his side.  He's seen this before and knows what's coming now.  No weight being transferred backwards, no hips sinking, nada. Good downsteps, under control, with vision and discipline. 

@6:49

Another Y-Y set. This time with a wing at the end.   Chinn just stays flat footed despite all of his keys screaming run.  At this point, SDSU knows  that the field side corner and both safeties really don't want any part of that running game. I was on the fence, but from that time stamp on, I have to question this kids level of 'phyisicality'.   How badly do you want to be the hitter?  How badly do you want to set the tone and enforce your will?   Because I'm not seeing it here.   Actually, that field CB, #25... that kid is a pussy.      No excuses for Chinn either.  6'3 220? That's Harrison Smith size.    Bring that pain or don't bring it at all.

@ 7:12

Dear Christ, you've been burned by this sight adjustment three times.  This made four.   You need to be even with those backers to take away that WR flare.  If not, it's a gimme 5 yarder everytime.    That's on the coaches at this point.    It's stealing practically.

@7:28

Now I'm back to questioning eyes for everyone.  I get it, I'm aggressive.  Been that way in almost every sport I've ever played.  You should see me on the golf course 6 deep.  We're gonna drop a club  and sail that MF EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.   That said, your keys will rarely lie to you.   I first have to compliment the run fake by the QB.   As a safety what helps not being sold on bullshit is seeing a high ball from the signal caller.  If that ball starts coming out chest high, I'm not taking that fake.   But when reading EMOL, he should see the fast release by the TE and the OT not aggressive down stepping to run block.

Actually, it's barely even a lateral step to sell the stretch.  So your eyes should double check that end man - As he goes, so do you. Then again, with some of the shodding excuses I see for blocking technique at even the collegiate level anymore...  things become muddled. Instead Chinn gets sucked up hard by the run action.   Not that you don't necessarily play run in this case.   But it's one of those you have to "feel" it.    You know eventually SDSU is going to take their dagger shot after building off the run.  And good Christ, does this team LOVES their OVER and boot calls to attack SIU with.  

@8:59 

Once again to Chinn's credit, he didn't seemingly make that same mistake again.  See's the tackle drop step and the EMOL quick release avoiding any chips.   So he was ready and adjusted this time.

@ 9:15.  THANK YOU!  This is what I've been wanting to see.   2x2 set, the motion creates a "quads" to that side or in this case, a lead sweep lead.  3rd and 9, Chinn plays run the whole way still.   He see's the end man go for a seal on the nose, the edge is being left as the read who (correctly) stays home for the QB. The SAM works outside the #2 and holds his ground, while the MIKE flows laterally, fills on the lead, sheds to attack his feet then Chinn flys in to clean it up with some serious authoritah.   This is what I want to see more of and what I truly believe this kid can be capable of when he actually wants to be.        But the kid needs work, he needs time, and most importantly needs to trust what he sees and feels.

Chinn might be the most physically gifted DB in this class.    And even better, there are real flashes of a light bulb between his ears here and there.  You have to look for them at times, but they are there.  But you can see a player who hasn't been at it for a hell of a long time either.  There is tremendous room for mental growth here and either he or his coaches picking up on little mistakes, then him correcting those mistakes, tends to speak volumes to just that.       Simplifying what you ask of him is a good start and with Joe Woods' defensive system being a more cut down version of Wade Phillips',  you won't be throwing him into the NFL fire, schematically speaking, right off rip.      

edit:  re: Woods system and Chinn's current play style.   This would be your ideal big nickel, dime backer, maybe even a WILL in a 'small ball' look.   But his best traits are being in man coverage underneath, then using his athletic ability and length to attack pass catchers, ball carriers and the QB.   He's a pretty smart blitzer, does well getting small through the wash and limiting contact when he's dial up at a 5th or 6th man in pressure.     But asking him to be your center fielder, to sit back and diagnose route combo's... just wouldn't be the best way to currently use him.   He has the physical ability to go sideline to sideline, but he lacks the time at that position, the eye discipline, anticipation and understanding necessary to properly fill that particular kind of roll at this moment.

Well at least I have time to watch more tape? *shrugs*

I'll do this "live" of sorts.  I'll routinely edit and update the post - or just reply to this thread post by post as I watch.       Dugger plays in a heavy quarters base system though with some man coverage and pass off calls.  

Speaking of pass offs, theone where I want to write my first observation about is @ 0:41 seconds.    That's cover 1 with the Mike backer playing the low hole.   So when you face a situation where you have intermediate to deep crossers, you either have, what my team refers to as a "bounce" call - safety passes each others primary coverage off and we pick up the switch. Or you simply play through it by checking where your low hole coverage has leveraged and playing underneath or over top of opposite receiver.    In this case, it's one of those where I'd love to work with the Browns personnel and ask my own questions to potential prospects.  Because I see Dugger playing the pass off technique, while the corresponding safety, who was in man coverage, continues to pursue the whole way through.

Either way, what sets great safety play apart is the cerebral aspect.  Can't have mental lapses like that on routine plays and expect to play DB in the NFL.  I would just like to know WHO had the lapse as to assign credit or bust. 

Refresher on a "base" quarters system.  

Corners will 99% of the time be in man coverage on the outside receivers - numbered 1 through 4 exterior to interior.  CB's are on the #1's and play them the whole way.  OLB's/nickel will generally be inside shade of the #2's with some exceptions and leverage/alignment preferences vs certain personnel & routes and if they key RUN, they attack run.   Safety's will be a yard or two inside eye of the #2 and the read will go off of their initial break in 2x2 sets.  If the #2 goes flat and you key pass, then you're going to work to double the #1 and stem from the top down if it isn't a 'ball out' situation.  Eyes are big here.  Because the #2's can setup double moves or you can get an RPO thrown at you which puts the OLB into a conflict of assignment. They step down to attack the run key, #2 goes flat and you read late... #2 gets open.    So those out and ups are becoming real big go to quarters beaters for many coaches.  Anyway, if you get to the #1 with eyes back and the ball isn't out, you can work "down" to the #2 if you see the quarterback begin his set and throw.  It's 1/3 anticipation, 1/3 study and 1/3 instinct + read/reaction.   The MLB usually tracks the back, watches for QB scramble, he can drop into a low hole or some coaches even green dog pressure them.  If the RB stays in to protect? Sometimes they have the go to attack if coaches feel good about it.

@ But at 1:13 is a good example of a pre-snap shift in coverage assignment based on motion.

Looks and feels cover 1, but the #3 that motions across the formation means the defense has to shift.  So Dugger, instead of being in man coverage now becomes assignment free.  When the #2 motions, the boundary safety steps down to take him in coverage.  This allows the Mike and WILL backers to read and attack as fit. Where previously If the back releases weak side, he's picked up by the Will and the boundary safety would be dropping assignment free as a rat/robber or deep middle.  Sans shift if the RB releases strong side, he's picked up by the Mike and the corresponding backer can, based on call, play low hole/crossers, pressure, spy, etc etc.   

LR really likes Dugger in man coverage vs trips because he's the best athlete on the field by a pretty wide margin.   

@ 1:20

Eye discipline and understanding of your assignment will always best athletic ability.  

The #2's are running a drag/settle here.  The drag from the boundary, the settle is from the field... which could either just be a curl or depending on coverage/sight adjustment can carry up field to open space (as he started to but the ball was out)     But the #1's are running vertical here and, unless the coaches were inverting coverage or specifically called for a double over top of the #2 I Just....  I literally have zero idea WTF the both safety's were playing here.        As I type, it can't be inverted coverage, those CB's are tight and in man.     Even showing that kind of look can be risky.     Dugger picks up his #2 like he's going vertical but.... that isn't THAT vertical.  Usually the OLB/Nickel will carry him up field for 10-12 yards giving then turn him over.    Meanwhile the other safety see's his #2 drag shallow, calls under and passes him off, but doesn't double the #1...?    Almost like he's expecting the opposite #2 on a deep over his way, but it's not like he's playing him?  He just stays flat footed, eyes caught inside on the man he passes off.   Because the Mike backer slides with the drag... Soooo?   Pause the moment you hit 1:23.  You can draw a square around the field side #2 receiver.  That's 4 guys that ended up having their eyes lead them to one man.       Somebody fucked something up somewhere.      This was a home run ball to both #1's and was going to be a touchdown either way.

@ 1:41 is at least straight forward enough to get a grasp on how LR handles trips quite a bit.

CB's in man on the #1's.  The read goes between the #2 and #3 from the nickel and Dugger.  Which ever receiver immediately goes under, in this case the #2,  the linebackers pick up the under/drag/shallow what have you.   Then the nickel and the safety double the vertical, in this case, the #3 and the weakside backer gets the RB should he release - which he does.    Man, without going a second further, that's a ballsy call against trips.  Because if you can get that #2 or #3 in that kind of space underneath, it's ripe for abuse from those pivot routes because there is NOBODY left over there.  Corner has been cleared out by his #1 pushing vertical.

Here's a better video on that type of concept.

tia,

Some folks are projecting Dugger as a hybrid LB. Kind of a po' man's Simmons. Also starting to read same about Chinn. Any thoughts on either?

Also while we're on Safeties... one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fall of Delpit. Wasn't all that long ago he was talked about as a Top 5 lock. Now he's hanging onto the bottom 4th of Rnd 1... and falling into round 2 in some mocks.

14 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

tia,

Some folks are projecting Dugger as a hybrid LB. Kind of a po' man's Simmons. Also starting to read same about Chinn. Any thoughts on either?

 

Also while we're on Safeties... one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fall of Delpit. Wasn't all that long ago he was talked about as a Top 5 lock. Now he's hanging onto the bottom 4th of Rnd 1... and falling into round 2 in some mocks.

I haven't been able to get past my last time stamp on this thread.   But I have watched two other games of Dugger.   He's an athlete with great straight line speed and size.   But he might be the most raw in terms of diagnosing route concepts, leveraging, positioning his body and taking the right angles of any DB  in this draft.   

Physical tools all look to be there save for some hip fluidity and lateral work that I'm not fond of.   @calfoxwc isn't wrong about him being an above average athlete.   But at the moment he reminds me of a kid I know who played at Kent.  Safety that had to move down to a WILL linebacker roll.  Ended up putting on weight and staying there too.     Kid is a VERY boom or bust pick.   His footwork in man coverage is not good either.  A lot of wasted steps just about anywhere you put him.  So when I say he's the best athlete on the field - that's how I mean he gets by.    If I'm GM? I can't take him early...   not the first 3 rounds at least.  

Chinn has shown some flashes of the mental game that I posted about earlier.  Another raw prospect BUT - happy to report his man coverage looked way better than Dugger's.   Especially his closing speed and 2nd nature using that upfield hand to attack the ball.  

Delpit is an enigma to me.  Good size, good speed, some eye discipline there.  But I think when you combine the lack of "Wow" moments with some injury history this season then you get something of a free fall.    He may end up being one of those "steady" pro's who drops a round.      

Just reread this thread... glad Flugs' OT thread sent me to find it.

To quote the Dead... What a long, strange trip it's been...

General impression #1: I don't remember player takes evolving more than they have this season. At least that's true of mine...

GI #2: The level of disagreement has to be at an all-time low.

A lot of good work here with no better examples than Safety and OT, but there are huge voids positionally speaking. Some of the void is understandable given the low need we have for some positions (QB, CB, WR, RB) and/or the low quality of the draft for some (TE, Edge). However, there are a couple we might want to get after... LB, IDL, Edge and IOL.

For some of these it just may be a matter of gathering up assessments we've sprinkled around elsewhere. I now I did a bit of an IOL summary in another thread. And while I know I once posted that there is little Edge value beyond Round 1, I have since come across a couple names that I think have a chance to be very good role players... at least in passing situations.

We still have time and this place...

Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland

Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...

• PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
• Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
• 2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.

Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.

Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.

But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?

I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K18wK7MFMx4

9 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

 

 Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.

• Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.

Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.

Especially the "soft" part.

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.

Especially the "soft" part.

Yea, but Erving was taken mid first round.     This guy is projected mid 2d to 3rd round, no? 

18 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Yea, but Erving was taken mid first round.     This guy is projected mid 2d to 3rd round, no? 

Which is much higher than where Erving should have been drafted originally.   

Projection means little in this case.  Similar deficiencies in playing style.

11 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland

Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...

• PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
• Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
• 2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.

Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.

Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.

But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?

I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K18wK7MFMx4

Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."

Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG.  In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG.  Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level."   The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter." 

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."

Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG.  In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG.  Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level."   The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter." 

I actually replied to this in the LT Thread and it ended up here.  I'm having a flashback to watching Alf ending up in a Gilligan's Island episode.  That same night when I asked my brother's pregnant girlfriend if she should be smoking and she said "Don't worry Butch, these aren't the kind that cause low birth weight."  The problem was I was already too distracted worrying about what was in my beverage or spaghetti sauce to explain the Alf episode.

Even worse, I am now talking to myself.  The good news is there is no arguing...

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

I actually replied to this in the LT Thread and it ended up here.  I'm having a flashback to watching Alf ending up in a Gilligan's Island episode.  That same night when I asked my brother's pregnant girlfriend if she should be smoking and she said "Don't worry Butch, these aren't the kind that cause low birth weight."  The problem was I was already too distracted worrying about what was in my beverage or spaghetti sauce to explain the Alf episode.

Even worse, I am now talking to myself.  The good news is there is no arguing...

ALF??? You may have had accidental spillsies of whiskey-spiked root beer into your drink... LOL

7 hours ago, Flugel said:

Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."

Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG.  In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG.  Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level."   The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter." 

How does a guy who plays too high find salvation by moving inside?

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

Even worse, I am now talking to myself.  The good news is there is no arguing...

I've tried that. Give it time.

I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now.   I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas).      Think I might already love this kid. 

19 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.

Especially the "soft" part.

Some similarities, but Ezra did not self-faceplant that I saw...

12 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now.   I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas).      Think I might already love this kid. 

A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.

I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.